eNCA's Freedom Day debate on Freedom in SA

hello good afternoon welcome everybody welcome to the apartheid museum and happy Freedom Day to all South Africans we also say a warm welcome to our television audience on en CA this afternoon we are going to be looking at a very critical question a quarter of a century into democracy into that after that democratic breakthrough in 1994 beyond the right to vote what does freedom consist of what is the best conceptualization of freedom how do we measure whether we are truly free what do we what is the empirical data tell us about the extent to which we are free or not where are the gaps between the vision and the free society and the realities and the various kinds of unfreedom today who should take the blame for these gaps looking toward the future way to from here to avoid the pitfalls of the first 25 years of democracy so the question we are asking this afternoon is is freedom through freedom likely within our lifetime and I have the great honor and pleasure to introduce two wonderful debaters and public figures I have on my left dr. Blair and Amanda who is also the transport minister but also the general secretary of the South African Communist Party and then on my right I have author broadcaster and public intellectual Eusebius MacArthur was also the host of the Eusebius MacArthur show I'm going to start off by asking dr. Zee Monday – in seven minutes talk to us about how free we truly are after 25 years of democracy in South Africa doctors demanded there Thank You Karima and also let me create a Eusebius and of course the viewers and the listeners at all and join you to wish everybody a Happy Freedom Day and the audience here let me put it this way firstly that as a country 25 years since 1994 we really have made enormous right historic and judging ourselves even by where we come from we have actually done very important things but that let me start by saying this because that's going to be my anchor that the the most critical foundations laid by this immediate foundations after a long struggle against colonialism and apartheid you know was firstly the battle will warn those of us who were fighting against apartheid for the Constitution to be drafted by an elected Constituent Assembly very important secondly the actual elections in 1994 themselves very significant foundation and the Constitution that we adopted to mind 96 now also the nature of that Constitution also reflects the role of the working class significantly because we've got very progressive labor laws the right to organize to join a trade union and basic improve basic conditions of employment at least on paper but also we have we've done things that have been very important we've got now about 17 million people on social grants some people are cynical about that social class by the way are not necessarily for the unemployed are people who are not working which is important in the context of the poverty that we have we have electrified 7 million households and small now it's 2014 figures it's a very interesting Harrison for instance Karima because in 20 years if we count 1994 to 2014 it's seven million electrified households between 1894 in 1994 essentially before that with electrified only five million households so in 20 years we did more than what this country did in a century in terms of electrification by the way I might as well quickly just make an example I did my Master's I finished my master's thesis in a paraffin lab in the 1980s in the early 1980s I did not know growing up in a madhouse that you can actually connect electricity in a madhouse cos only the answer which came with that we thought that there can be no electricity education today we're talking about 1.6 million students who have benefited from the National Student Financial Aid scheme in higher education basic education more than 80% of nofa schools with at least a meal per day in all the schools now this is very important you know these these achievements but also I don't want them to say because of the spider it's the achievements of the ANC government I don't believe any other government would have done this I want to put this up front and you said yes I'm looking forward to debating you know it's gonna get hot in here but I want to say that this does not mean that we do not have huge challenges some of the challenges for instance we have is that we still have a long way to go and there are certain errors also that I'm prepared to at which today that we did from the standpoint of the SACP I can tell you we made a mistake by adopting neoliberal policies in the mid 1990s also the other bigger mistakes that we've made is what now the SACP characterization characterization estate capture you know now there that is why therefore we agree the ends we now need a second more radical face because the things I have outlined who can say it was like the first phase of our democracy now these things that were in that dress unless we address them they threaten to actually roll back the gains that were actually made and I'm saying this also against the background that having said all this one definition of freedom for us is that freedom is not delivered in a wheelbarrow to people freedom has to be fought for and people have to participate just like under platted yes we were victims at one level of apartheid but our people refuse to be victims that's why they struggled and fought and won this freedom now it didn't end in 1994 we need now to make sure that our people continue to create and expand the boundaries of the freedom that we already have Thank You minister you can see I'm a radio producer Matt I'm not see I showed the minister time and luckily he's been interviewed so many times he knows when to wrap let me introduce you CBS MacArthur author public intellectual broadcaster and of course also my colleague at 7:02 the house of the Eusebius McArthur show thank you Karima good afternoon dr. Blake into Monday the viewers at home or my media colleagues were here thank you so much for coming to cover this event I know they're many events going on today and most importantly thank you to the people in the room I don't know if you're at home whether you can see whether you Vera panning of the shot yet but there are particularly many young people in the room and I want to start off firstly by acknowledging you and asking yourself indulgently please give yourselves a round of applause and I was tempted to cheat in this debate because dr. Zamunda is quite a sharp blade so I thought that perhaps before the debate I should give him one of his favorite beverages a glass of red wine and secretly put blood in it too much blood that may be in his alcohol but I was covered because I saw him munching a little bit early on some hot cross buns but that notwithstanding I'm looking forward to engaging the minister I've got a lot to say about the substance of the claims that he has made but I'm going to be fair on him and make some positive argument of my own in the allotted 5 minutes that I have left and only in the second bite when Karima gives me another chance will I directly respond to each of the claims that he has made but I thought what might be useful this for me to tell you what I think about the topics the position I'm going to take on the question are we truly free is that we are not truly free the slightly longer answer is that we have made enormous strides since 1994 we shouldn't be glib and a historical about what we achieved when we defeated the apartheid edifice however we also shouldn't romanticise 1994 and one of the young what are the nice things about being young younger I'm not that young anymore but I wasn't young enough to old enough to vote in 1994 I turned 40 a couple of weeks ago is that sometimes as young the South Africans we can be very ungrateful about what the likes of Karima or doctrines Monday did for us collectively as a society but sometimes we're also usefully psychologically distant from the past and can be dispassionate about how true we really are so I want to make a couple of cording firstly what does freedom mean to me freedom cannot only be defined in terms of political freedom when ANC politicians talk about freedom and they want to remind you that we are truly free what they usually mean by that is that we have regular free and fair elections they talk about political freedom I don't think that that conception of freedom is good enough because political freedom means nothing to someone who's sitting in Aleks who doesn't have a home political freedom means nothing to a woman who can't jog at 5 in the morning because she might be raped political freedom means nothing to a woman like Karima who can't jog past a construction site without being kept cold by men who are misogynistic political freedom means nothing to the young people in this room with uniforms on who ID school the schools that dr. blatant Zamunda is so proud of but who at the end of mitrik may not be able to slot into the economy because the economy isn't as Democratic as our elections so what do I mean by freedom I mean by freedom economic freedom social freedom I mean the opportunity to live a life that is filled with flourishing not just the ability to go to elections every five years and I think we need to be expansive in our definition of freedom if we then look at the steps how free are we truly well he is right we indeed have achieved a lot there are many communities which is something the opposition parties Dawkins a Monday Kareem and I agree on this often forget there are many communities there any nerve clinics for example no ambulances no police services and when your baseline is absolute degradation because of the lack of services that were not provided by the apartheid government then of course 25 years later there's a lot to be grateful for in the many ways in which you are free but I'm afraid there are many unfreedom that we have to confront the South Africans there are many unfreedom for me the most important is our undemocratic and how racist the structure of economy remains and the people who are the worst losers are the poor black majority the very ones that the ANC pretend they are in service of when they described himself as a multi-class formation but in reality we have an ANC led government that is actually middle class and NT poor and NT black the question then becomes who's responsible for this and I'll come back to this later because I've only got a minute left for my opening statement where I would agree in part implicitly with a minister's opening statement is that any sober structural analysis of where we've gone wrong can't begin and end with the state I've got to ask myself if I really am an ally of women if I am a feminist father what am i doing to raise my son to not be kept calling for example I have agency if I'm a CEO if I'm a white 60 year old CEO what am i doing to reduce income inequality in my company so we can't be state centric only when we talk about who is responsible for the unfreedom so we are all collectively implicated in the unfreedom I'm afraid however and we can debate this shortly the lion's share of the blame Karima must go to the state the state has the monopoly on policy the state has a monopoly on lawmaking the state has a monopoly on collecting our Texas and deciding how to disburse it the state has a monopoly on force so of course the lion's share of the blame goes to the state and a little bit later I wanna talk looking forward to the question what can we do but in the first instance it pains me to say this because many racists will love me saying this but I'm saying it from a position of love we are not talking the monday a country that can really be described as truly free thank you so much to my two participants Eusebius moccasins just finished and of course immediately the contradictions are with us and it's through contradictions that we actually get progress so doctors in mind I'd like you to respond specifically to Eusebius s concept of and freedoms and particularly the focus on the economy and the dichotomy between the fact that yes the state is actually responsible for the lion's share of the the problems because they have the lines they have the monopoly on power but we also have actors in the economy that have set the 25 years out and I'd like you to marry those two in getting to how I'm free the economy so remains there a number of things that I agree with from what you said we assess said kerima but also their number of things that I disagree maybe let me pick up on those so that we have a good debate firstly Eusebius is very interesting you say the state almost doesn't matter on the one hand you know people can just around the state and so on but then when you comes to blaming then almost the biggest slice of the blame is on the stage this usually the problem I have with liberals I open about what the state yes the state is not everything but the state is important that's why also we are considering that point it can't be important in some instances and in others not secondly by the way we also need to critique the notion of just looking at the state let me tell you karema you know as the SACD one way we are described in 1994 is that the n seek it was largely given an unfunded mandate with a beautiful Constitution we proud of it I was part of those who negotiated it but an unfunded mandate in terms of the things we have to address poverty inequality and unemployment who was responsible for that it was the apartheid state yes but it was the capitalist class in South Africa what does what did the capitalist class do from 1994 at the time when this ANC government needed all the resources they did listed you know in the first 10 years of our democracy about 20 to 25 percent of our GDP left the country and listed in the New York and the London Stock Exchange's by the very same people whose legacy the ANC government was supposed to protect so it's very important that you don't just look at the state but also when you quit Capital who had the biggest beneficiaries of the pre 1994 dispensation that's why also I would differ with you serious it's not just only the state you know it's primarily those who were accumulated before him but no one disagrees with the fact that as I have said we still have lots of challenges and the reason why the ncns ACP says a second phase of the transition let's focus on economic transformation I agree you cannot have freedom will always remain incomplete for as long as we are not economically emancipated but then economic emancipation you can't just put it solely on the state without also looking at who are the beneficiaries who also continue to be the primary economic beneficiaries at this point in time so I just thought that it's important that I actually say that so that we are able to deal with all so I hope I must say this also harima because some people abuse this freedom that you know because we are free you can say whatever we like then we can say everything is possible anyhow we call that populism from in front of work as I tell work as you're gonna end to end thousands a week and a clever ends there every but I know that's actually it's not going to happen that's hot use of freedom of expression the point I'm trying to make is that these challenges that we have required as to understand that freedom is not an event freedom is a process but it's not only a process it's a struggle which is what is most important how do we organize them to make sure as I said at the beginning that we complete this incomplete with freedom we do agree but because it's incomplete that we can't say all the things I have mentioned they do not matter there is the point I think that also needs to be made okay I want you ask you to come to the policy questions that you decided on that got us to where we are but I'm not the part of the debate so I'm going to moderate this debate and I'm sure that is exactly where your sleepers would probably want to start you serious your response absolutely Karima you talk about contradictions that's the kind of terminology that old Marx is loved to use as an excuse for being inconsistent so I want to point out a couple of inconsistencies dr. blatant Zamunda is but an awkward position allottee in this debate he is part of an ANC led government there is sign up for neoliberalism where he's also proudly so and is also a communist who presumably is not very proud of the economic cluster that have rolled out some very anti poor anti black neoliberal economic policies of the past 25 years I'm gonna come to that in a second I wanna I want to reply to the Minister more directly you see where many young people in many opposition politicians and again this overlapping consensus talking to the Monday between us we don't disagree completely which is one of the reasons why you one of my favourite Marxist interlocutors Karima as well but the areas where we disagree are important so let me just say where I agree with you the things that you list as achievements from the point of view of developmental outcomes are enormous Lee important and only a wealthy person or a glib middle class suburbanite will not appreciate the difference that for example 7 million people being on social grants make to their existence and someone who comes from a family of many poor people people living under conditions of poverty we shouldn't say poor people it's not their identity I appreciate that thank you for reducing the burden of black text with the social grants in our communities and many of our families that need it the 1.6 million beneficiaries of I education I appreciate that fact to 7 million houses as well but you know what the NZ love to do they like to list the things that are truisms about what they've done without the detail 7 million people watching this in this debate on ANCA right now have a electrification Karima it means nothing when ashcombe can't give you electricity when you have energy insecurity because at SOE has been hollowed out because of looting sponsored by the ANC led state it doesn't matter that in theory I have a mud structure that could give me electricity to get my master's degree however the SOE is incapable of delivering and that is the story of each one of the steps that he has given me I can take another example you talk about 17 million people they want social grants many in my family there is a fantastic thing but tomorrow if I die and I can't send remittances to the Eastern Cape or the Western Cape many of them would not be self-sufficient because your grant system doesn't ask the question how do we get them to be the authors of their own life rather than simply being subject of a benevolent state so the story of social grants is double-sided on the one side it shows a government that is genuinely caring that cares about deep inequality but it's also in its design and detail Dawkins Amanda a story of the government that doesn't take seriously the question how do we really emancipate people economically so that they can not be dependent on the state of virtually over many decades nothing's in money I think it's a fantastic point to get back to the question of policy choices yes now you said that you had an unfunded mandate in your rebuttal to do you see reason I agree because you inherited a bankrupt state Alice's Fox wrote a brilliant book about that but you chose a set of policies at the time despite that limitation that didn't necessarily get you out of that that created perhaps a greater debt burden and one of it is for example the fact that we chose to have an arms deal over free compulsory education so can you explain the policy choices of this unfunded mandate so these in admit is a recognition that the state is bankrupt that you are new at governance but you ate the decisions to make why did you not choose free education in 1994 good luck opens Monday no we did interestingly enough Karima was listening early hours of this morning on 702 on a brilliant interview that Nelson Mandela the week after the shell House which is you know he was articulating 10 years of of compulsory education we did that you know we said first 10 years is compulsory and large parts of it actually by the way was free not all of it I had to agree there were still very expensive schools that were actually charging fees but we have progressively said even in those schools children who come from poor families cannot actually be excluded I have said before if we look at the past by the way this thing of only talking about the past nine years it's fine but it's not adequate because there were mistakes also I'm not defending the last nine years don't mislead me but there were things that were done wrong also prior to that one of those was the adoption of the Kea policies but it was a struggle you know that's how we understood we understand it as communist you say PSSs criticize and let I've got this Janice face because I'm a communist and this see it's not we understand exactly the terrain abroad movement they are always trapped inside that movement itself about the policies and their democratically decided and then those policies that will we will continue to struggle we managed to win the debate at the end that it was wrong if an Eskimo by the way s calm comes from that era we knew in 1997 that we had to invest you know in our coal powered stations and so on we didn't because there was a plan to actually privatize most of the state that's part of the problem that we face I don't want to deny that part of the Blatt house is because of the theft letters upon the desk or then at least also every president like president Ramaphosa who has actually stood up and said where we were wrong we will admit that we were wrong and we are actually going to act as he's actually acting now and we hope that all South Africans will actually support that so that we are able to deal with with all this problem so the issue of policies what we need I think we did try to do some Corrections we must not rule out of this for instance between 2009 and 2014 a trillion drains was invested into infrastructure that was very important because that question does in many instances but also must remember that our economy we can't just also only be blaming individuals has two key constraints its global that we are operating where a subsidiary economy in a global economy which it has got crisis has got implications for us we also aware in the Sadek region South Africa is not an island track of those problems we are talking about xenophobia and so on I just manifestations of a deeper problem that sadek actually has become a labor is a vu for South African capital in the main so all those are external factors that we have to factor in if we are to then develop policies that are actually appropriate so that we understand the totality of our context you see this I'm gonna give you a chance to report some of the issues and then I'm going to open the floor for discussions I'm sure many of you have really interesting questions I myself have interesting questions but I will keep those things to myself and allow the debate to conclude but you see please please you know pick up on some of the issues that you disagree with or agree with adopters Amanda yeah the thing is Amanda said that what we need now is a recognition and certainly that the ANC is a movement recognizes that we need quote a second more radical face and I've got a problem with that idea because there was nothing that stopped the ANC simultaneously dealing with civil and political rights and changing them from 1994 and at the same time dealing with an economy that is exclusionary that is unjust that is racist so this idea of we need 50 years to deal with one set of issues and then women's rights gay rights can come later and then maybe poverty the underline that's nonsense the historical burden that you have as a government is to simultaneously irreducibly deal with the complexity of challenges that you have and I want to keep it practical doctors Amanda and I both like theorizing but I but but for sake off of a focus debate take the example of MTN and Vodacom and the connection between a lack of access to cheap data and our civil and democratic rights that we want to entrench Karima the connections are now clear you can't be a successful job seeker in 2019 we don't have data you can't be an informed citizen taking Korea's participatory model of democracy seriously and acting it if you don't have data and yet when I talk about the monopoly that the state has on policy formulation and lawmaking nothing has stopped the agency lead government from deciding to be empty pure to be to be Pro / Pro working class and regulating how corporates like MTN and Vodacom behave in terms of their business model siphoning off super proper profits and we in effect end up cross subsidizing cheap dates on the rest of the continent that's what I'm talking about doctors Amanda is disingenuous to then talk about while some of this has to do with external as if the global economy explains our own lack of ability or willingness rather because it's about political wool to go after our own companies when he talks about what a corporate citizens doing they not in this debate you know that if the CEOs were here you and I talk to them all the time it's political analyst behind closed doors we take them on for their own agent of power that they have and they don't use to make the world a better place but you are here as a representative of the state it's mind-boggling to me that the government welcomes the Competition Commission saying that these companies are effectively being empty poor in their behavior when you have a monopoly in the state to do something about it the same with the bread cartel the construction industry so when I critique the state I'm talking about the direct constitutional power that you have and that you have not used to make sure that we are truly economically free and you see this just tip that so yes we are indeed dealing with contradictions and I disagree with him I do think contradictions to get us forward dachshunds ammonia quickly sponges you and then we're going to open it to our listeners I just want to remind those of us who are watching at home you are of course watching a live debate at the apartheid museum we're talking about a quarter of a century of freedom and re-evaluating the quality of that freedom and whether we are indeed truly free doctors thematically it's interesting what the sort of admission by Eusebius actually says we talked to the captains of industry behind closed doors and to access government you talking to us in the public engage them in public so it says what I am saying you know sort of sort of this liberal diving the state keep the others who are also doing wrong things and actually do not blame them I can say insofar as Vodacom MTN we set up the Competition Commission and it's doing its work that's why we should welcome it and I can say now without fear of contradiction we are going to deal with these big monopolies we are going to bring down the price of the price of data for instance but let's top your total of a century we have started doing these these things and all these measures that were we are prepared to consider as we could have done more we did not do more for a variety of reasons I don't want also to be seen to be looking too much backward but also corruption really has been a very big factor in our ability it's like this theme of change in ministers every evening the mistakes that we committed you know on the front for instance of the digital age we are in the tap ages in South Africa at the moment not least because we wanted to push very selfish nano it narrow interest in this space at the expense of radical transformation but what I'm saying now is that watch this space we're gonna bring down the price of the price of that we're gonna advance much quicker than we've been able to do in terms of digital transformation you know what is a couple of days of from now so we're gonna hold buttons Amanda do that promise you said but let's use this opportunity to open the floor for discussions we've got a roving mics moving around so can I have the first four hands please and can I get the max to the to the people so we'll start with women first we are the majority of the electorate so we are going to give women an opportunity to take their rightful place then we have in fact two more women here on this side and then we have a gentleman here in front so those will be our first four participants please introduce yourself good afternoon everybody my name is Eleanor Williams and I'm not representing an organization or entity I'm here in my capacity as a private individual and my question is for Eusebius you have spoken at length so far about the ANC in the government being anti black and anti poor so what I would like to understand from you is to what end what is the endgame of such an approach what's the strategy behind it please and elaborate more on your thoughts on that thank you so much I'm going to take the other questions then we will take them in that order so will him not remind ourselves that Eusebius has to talk about the endgame as the answer to the first question can I have the second respondent please hi my name is Stefani and this question is for Brady in the Monday I voted when the first time in 1994 and I think we were promised that we will get you know we will who will be moved out of the mess boxes but today when I go back home to their foul it's even worse than when I voted we were made to clean the streets when Mandela came out of prison but today the street are a mess people are falling sick their clinics that we have that we're functioning well they are now dealer plated because the government which is the agency which is running the country is not doing anything about it you have the you run the policies of this country I think you can do a lot to change us however you are not doing anything you're campaigning like you are doing now campaigning for elections you want us to vote you to vote for the ends you are also selling us a corrupt a corrupt mandate that bankrupt excuse me a bankrupt mandate that your souls in 1994 when you drafted that Constitution so what are you going to do to change it and why should I vote for the end C because the LC hasn't done anything its actual effect is done a little we can't say to me if I ate pop and milk when I was young not ever eating pop and me Thomas be excited that means nothing to me [Applause] my name is DT Roma Casella and I have a comment or rather two doctors Amanda first I don't think it's honest to say he's a communist we can't debate that afterwards I really don't think you're a communist at all and then secondly I think I want us to move away from describing freedom with reference to apartheid I was only a few months old when we wrote it so I don't know what life is and our party so me and my white counterpart have to have the same idea of what freedom means and in that respect I think the government failed dismally because they tell us about electricity that's basic we should have done that in the first five years we can't be talking about electricity now when we are we've got so many problems I can't even list them now so I want you to then talk freedom outside of oppression because I was never oppressed so I'm not overly grateful for the right to vote because I was born in France that we already have that I'm going to start with you CBS the first question was about what is the endgame to what end do you believe the ANC adopted the policy positions edited I thank you for your question it's both a wonderfully clear question but also layered some people will take it as a rhetorical support of blade because they may think I'm coming just listen because they may think that surely there is no self-interest in a set of policies that are anti-porn anti-black so let me be blunt the end game is very simple eating at the trough until you explode like a fat pig that's what it's about it is our turn to eat the anc has a moral dilemma because it doesn't know how to deal with a moral rot at its core it is empty poor and anti-black not by design but as a consequence of self-serving politics you've got a lot of defending to do let me just remind the country of the questions the one is that you have to explain your communism now another the Communist world has many versions of communists but you can decide what which one you want to address but I think the key question here is government is responsible and you acknowledge that in the beginning so maybe pick up on the fact that many people feel that they don't have to clap hands because we can vote because democracy is about more than voting the young lady has got a right way of views very entitled I disagree with you okay I think you're wrong just like you think I'm not a communist I also think you're wrong so let's leave it there we can pursue that debate at another stage you know at another time you say yes I think that you can criticize the ANC and its government but to say it's aunty poor and anti black it's completely wrong I disagree you know all these measures I was mentioning almost all of them exclusively they were actually changing the conditions of poor people you know I can understand the youth which says you take electricity for granted there isn't why you take electricity for granted it's because of the ANC government the reason why we are born into electricity and better services it's because of the NZ government those of us of course will never hit a lectricity we can see that the difference is big what you take for granted didn't come for free and did not come cheap and it's important also by the way for young people for young people to further themselves about understanding our history you can't just dismiss the East you know the Cubans put it nicely any nation that does not know its history does not have a future it's very important that we actually pray that in my and apart from that most you will find no other organization no matter what its witnesses better than the ANC on pro youth policies let me just take one thing our youth was almost getting devastated on HIV and AIDS we have actually rolled out what is their largest antiretroviral program in the world and who have saved the lives of young people and in fact we've even increased the life expectancy over the last ten although over the last ten years in particular because of the increased provision on that nurse fuss how no one can actually say well what does it mean to me because I'm born now yes we are poor now and we are getting what you are getting because there's been the National Student Financial Aid Scheme many students would not many of them most of them by the way – first beneficiaries are the first to be university or college graduates in the history of their families that's Pro Youth it's young people our schooling system today it's not the past the fact that they are hungry children today is not the past they're hungry children today the fact that will provide one meal a day in our poor schools and it's often the only meal by the way for many of those poor children not least because of your capitalist class by the way you serve yes it's very convenient to just blame the state and the agency because then by default you end in a very problematic position of being an apologist for capitalist exploitation in this country which still remains the principle determinant of poverty and unemployment in this country so I think that it's important that we actually say that that it may not mean much to you you may be coming from the middle class but for millions of poor people and not yet because I'm campaigning I thought it's always nice to debate with you Serbia is my favorite favorite liberal to debate and for us as Marxist is very easy to take liberal sometimes an important issue and it's an important debate sometimes what is good about this debate why do it allows us to get a little bit deeper into the issues rather than the Town Hall debates where people often are more insulting each other than actually analyzing things so that's what I would say for now but I'll come back just quickly okay I want to be very clear as we expand this debate and I know we've still got plenty of time I don't and I'm not trying to be friendly to play because we like each others as interlocutors one part of this debate as a national debate is a debate about the ANC one part of this debate is a debate about the state and I'm going to be a bit dystopian and if there's time later we can unravel it I'm afraid the situation is more dire than what I've said there's a poverty of ideas how to deal with our own freedoms in our body politic if we were talking about the e FF and the DA i've got sharp critiques of them as well what they have an advantage where they have an advantage over the ANC is that the aims is the incumbent government so of course there's a track record for us to examine very closely but at the heart of our unfreedom is one concept racial injustice and there isn't one major political party in our country that have really tackled that fully and delivered particularly millions of poor black people from their injustice that we experience in our lived experiences on a daily basis the e FF does well rhetorically but there be Avia and praxis tell you something else the DEA has got a policy of ideas when it comes to inequality racism economic lack of democracy in corporate South Africa and the corporates themselves do not give a damn about the moral duties they have to make a difference so we are right to ask tough questions over the ANC let government I won't stop doing that but all the sources of power I'm afraid have collectively let all of us down

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