Ramit Sethi | Chase Jarvis LIVE | ChaseJarvis

(jazzy hip hop music) (audience clapping) – All right, whoo! (audience clapping) Thank you very much,
welcome to another episode of Chase Jarvis Live. Thank you internet for tuning in live. Very, very excited to have
everyone here in the studio, and the thousands of folks
who are watching at home. Amazing episode today. We’re calling it the
No BS Business espisode of Chase Jarvis Live because we have one of the world’s foremost, the person who’s inspired me more in the business of art and photography than any other person in the world, Ramit Sethi, with us today. It’s gonna be an amazing show. Throw out the ramen. No more starving artist mentality. That is old news. Before we bring him out, I’ve got a couple housekeeping issues. First, I want to thank Polaroid and B & H for supporting the show,
huge, huge support. Thank you, couldn’t do it without you. Also, I gotta give a shout-out. We had a contest going
to re-tweet the blog post over the last couple of days, and the winner of those, signed book, this here book, which is Ramit’s book, I Will Teach You to be Rich. To those, signed and
autographed to you personally are Kern-Photo and Sweethouse, proper respect to you
for promoting the show. Thank you very much. There’s a new contest
that starts right now, will go on the rest of the show. If you folks at home
hear something you like, a quote, re-tweet that,
the hashtag cjlive, the URL to the show, to win a signed book. If you include @Polaroid,
you’ll be eligible to win the Polaroid that I shoot, a one-of-a-kind Polaroid of
every guest for the show, and you’ll be able to win that. Hopefully worth a ton of money at some point in the future. Without further ado, we’re
gonna get down to brass tacks, because I promised a hard-hitting show, a no bullshit, cut straight to the truth, with Ramit Sethi. Please join me in welcoming
him, he’s right here. Come on up, buddy, where you at? (audience clapping)
– Yeah! – Thanks for having me. – Thank you.
– All right. – There’s your cocktail
slash orange juice. – Thank you. – Slash good for you. – Slash how many times
will they refill that- – As many as you want.
– In this show. – As many as you want. Okay, so I had made some big promises, I don’t know if you heard about this, in the internets, in the tubes. I promised to eat my shorts if people did not walk away from this show with some skills and some information, some knowledge, that they
didn’t have before the show. – Love it. – So, my shorts are not tasty and that means I need
you to deliver the goods. – All right. – We all know, let’s settle
in for just a second here, cause we all know, if I
may, tell a little story about artists and creatives. We tend to have problems
selling ourselves. I think there’s a belief out there that because I can be on live television with however many thousands
of people watching, that I don’t have that same problem. Not true. I think we all have it
because we’re out there talking about ourselves,
and not just ourselves, but our work. You have to be able to
talk about your work, and you have to be able
to talk about yourself, but more than anything, you have to have a knowledge of what it is the other person wants to hear. So, before we get into the
specifics and the nitty-gritty, tell me a little bit
about your background. Where you came from,
what you’re doing here, give me the low down. – Well, you know, my
background is basically, got very interested in how people behave, why they do what they do. So, for example, we
all know that we should work out more, eat less- Manage our money-
– What are you saying, I’m not fit.
– Yeah (laughs). – This is a veiled comment-
(Chase laughs) Directed, but yet we don’t do it, right? So, we all know we should do these things, so why don’t we? I got tired of reading
the same old advice. Keep a budget, don’t
spend money on lattes. That stuff sounds like
it would be logical, but it just doesn’t work. So, I got very interested in this. My background is in social
influence and persuasion. I started learning how people work. How do you change other people’s behavior? How do you change, how do
I change my own behavior? I created all these
little tests and systems to go to the gym more,
to automate my money, and over time I started noticing
these really funny things. I’m Indian, and I think Indian people are basically bred to negotiate. Since I’ve been a little kid, my parents have been like, “Look, this is how you
negotiate when you go to Macy’s. “This is who, talk to
her, don’t talk to her, “she’s too smart, make sure you say this.” I learned how to bargain
with all these people. – I didn’t know you could
negotiate with Macy’s. – Most people don’t.
(laughing) You shouldn’t be able to, but you can. So, I started learning how
to negotiate everything, in terms of the phrases,
in terms of the mindset. People think negotiations is adversarial, think, hey Chase, I’m
gonna take all your money, yeah, I won. No, it’s not, It could be cooperative,
and if you do the job right, the other person actually
wants to pay you. They want to work with you, and price almost becomes a triviality. I learned these things. I studied it in school
on a theoretical basis. I got more applied, launched my book, and basically now my- – Can I talk about your
education for a second? – Yeah. – Stanford educated, Oxford educated, and so you did go to some
finer learning institutions. – Yeah. – Is that where you learned
the meat of the matter, or did you learn in the streets? What’s the- – That’s both, actually. Learning it when I was a kid, was through my parents, very applied, what do you say, who do you talk to. Learning the real
theoretical models in school. I think there’s power to both, so it’s easy to write a top ten list of things to say in a negotiation, but I really appreciate people who have that theoretical rigor, so I want to talk about
all those things today. Then, how do you apply that to money, to business, to personal relationships. You can apply all these things to many different parts of life. – All right, I’m gonna tell a short story and you tell me if I
put my foot in my mouth, or if I blow it in any way. The person who introduced
us is Tim Ferriss. Tim is a good friend, and
he’s been on the show before. Tim, if you’re watching, respect. It was at a gathering that Tim was having, and I don’t know, you
and I started visiting. As I said in my blog post, I learned more in 30
minutes talking to you than I had in the previous ten years. The things that stuck with me
the most, the absolute most, were how the negotiation or the idea of, in our case, talking
about art and creativity, was very much about understanding the mindset of the other. As soon as you take it out
of the adversarial thing, and it’s like, if I can
create and illustrate the value that I’m
bringing in the right way, that not only would this
person be an advocate, but they will actually
be happy to give you, not just some money, but more money than you thought you could do the job for. – Totally, it’s all about
understanding the other person, and that’s really hard to do. We’re not built, naturally, to understand the other person. We walk in to an interview,
or to a client meeting, and all we wanna talk about is, here’s what I can do, I, I, I. We call it I, I, I syndrome. It takes really hard work to be able to understand the other person. I’ll give you an example. We built this course on earning money, and we spent over one year and collected over 100,000 data points to understand why people
want to earn money, why are they already not earning money. All these barriers. For example, why do you think the number one reason people want to earn money on the side is? These are 20’s and 30’s. Why do think they want to earn an extra 1000 dollars a month? What would they do with it? – Oh man, I don’t know, vacation? – That’s what I thought! I thought they’re gonna go to Vegas, and basically ball it up, bottle service, staying at the best places. I was sure. Wrong, I was totally wrong. It was, people want to have the option to eventually quit their jobs. Not to quit, but to have the option. When we learned that, it totally changed the way we framed it. When we’re writing our marketing, and when we’re writing about the course, people are reading it,
and they actually say, “Holy shit, I can’t believe this guy “just said that. “I was actually gonna say
those words, right now.” It almost, to them, seems like we’re reading their minds, but that’s cause we did
all the work beforehand. – Got it, thank you
for doing all the work, because the work that you’ve already done in the ten years of your career is what we’re hoping to
pour out on the stage here, and into the audience, and
into the audience at home. Where do we start? When you stand back and
you look at creatives and their inability,
their total ineptitude, it’s embarrassing. It’s why we live up to the stereotypes. Everyone in the audience is looking sheepishly at me right now. (both chuckling) I wish you folks at home could see that, but we’re all guilty of it, and I hate it as much as the next person. Is it about representing? In my blog post, I said we’re gonna talk about some specific things. We’re gonna talk about negotiating. 80% of the negotiation is done before you ever set foot in the room, or get on the phone. 80%, that to me was mind blower. That was one of the
things you told me before, so we better learn about that. We better learn about how to illustrate the value that you bring to the client, and one of the other things I love, I think in your world
that’s called the briefcase? – Briefcase technique. – The briefcase technique, in our world it would be the portfolio technique. This shit’s gonna blow your mind. Those are a couple things
that we wanna cover. We also want to be taking
questions the whole time from folks here in the
live studio audience, and those folks at home. As a reminder, if you
want to ask a question, while you’re tweeting away
these brilliant things, these nuggets that Ramit’s dropping, so you can win two copies
of his signed book. Which we should grab the
book here real quick. I Will Teach you to be Rich. So, while you’re
re-tweeting clever quotes, the #cjlive and the URL to this live page to win signed books, also
be thinking about questions. Because I’m goin’ to the
phones as much as possible, we are going to be goin’ to the phones. You can go to the phones by @chasejarvis, @ramit, R-A-M-I-T, #cjlive. We’ll be pickin’ up those questions periodically throughout the
course of the show, so do that. We will try and get to as many questions, again, this is a no
bullshit, straight ahead, answer your questions show. Theory is nice, but we’re
gonna get to the meat. This is, while we got you here, why don’t you tell me
about this for a second. – Well, I almost
committed suicide 25 times writing this book for two years. It’s hard writing it, but
the reason I wrote it was, people would come to
me and they’d be like, “Hey, what credit card should I use,” or “I have 5000 dollars
sitting in my savings account, “what should I do with it,” or “I make a lot of money,” or “I make a decent amount of money, “but I have nothing left at the end.” The funny thing is, and this is getting inside people’s minds, think about most money books. The first thing you do, you pick ’em up- – I think they’re cheesy, first of all. They freak me out, from afar, I’m like oh- – Cause there’s a guy
sitting on it like this, “yeah, look at my suit.”
(Chase laughing) You’re like, “Ah, God, stop
it,” in your oversized suit. These books, the first thing they do, the first chapters they’re like, “Let’s write down how much
you spend everywhere.” You know what people are like? They’re like, “Mm, fuck this.” No one wants to do that. Who wants to write how much they spend, it’s like a terrible feeling. What I did was, this is
all about the psychology, I stated with credit cards. We all have credit cards. We all hate our credit cards. We could all negotiate our credit cards with one phone call and usually save hundreds of dollars a month. I actually gave the scripts
that you can read off the phone, and just melt ’em like butter. Yeah, it’s cool, and I’m
glad people get started, but the point of that is, when you do book or when you
walk into a client meeting, what is it that people want, and what do they not want? What are their hopes, fears, and dreams? – You tell me. – Yeah, let’s talk about
the barriers for artists. Why are creatives generally so terrible at representing themselves? – Well, mostly because I
think they’re introverted, and they’re all about their art, and I would say that’s
a big portion of it, but the number one is
that there’s some sort of, there’s a patronizing
underpinning to making money. If you somehow make money, then you’ve sold out and you’re bullshit. I, for one, have fought the difference between fine art and
commercial art for a long time. I see them as very fused. We’ve been getting commissions
for thousands of years. I think that’s the biggest problem. If you’re killin’ it, then
you’re somehow not sweet, and you’ve sold out. – It happens when your
peer group is around you. They’re looking at you and they’re like, “You’re a sell out,” or you’re seeing these other magazines and people are writing
comments on the blog post like, “This guy’s a sell out. “His stuff is not pure anymore.” So there’s that. I think there’s a few other reasons too. One is an over-focus on the craft. Now, the craft matters, no doubt about it. You have to be good, you
have to be very good, or even better, but it’s easy to get comfortable doing what we know. For example, if I can write
really good blog posts, I could do that all day long, but is that gonna grow my
business to where I want it to go? I see a lot of my creative
friends, they’re like, “Oh I really need to get this new camera,” or “I really need to
spend another two years “on this one piece of pixel perfection.” But really, does the
client understand that? Does the average client that they’re going after understand it? Maybe at your level, but for most of us- – No, no, actually, at
my level it’s further. They assume that you have the technical, that all that’s just, if you showed up and didn’t have that, it’s like, there’s 50 people standing around like, “Who the fuck hired this guy?” So, it’s assumed that you have all that. The way I talk about it
often is professional golf. You don’t get to be on the PGA for being sort of good. You have to be able to hit the ball down the middle of the fairway. If it’s raining, if
there’s 100 people watching or 10 million people
watching, it doesn’t matter, that’s assumed. I think we can, just for
sake of this conversation, and for the folks at home, that you can execute technically. Let’s just take that off the table, cause if you don’t, you
need to keep practicing. – Let me give you an example
of one of my students. This is one of my favorite examples. I had this student of
mine, her name is Jackie. She lives in Minneapolis. I believe she’s in her late 20’s, just like this ordinary girl, and she’s a violin instructor. She came to me and she’s like, “I wanna learn how to earn
more using my skills.” Okay, she could have
spent the next 20 years becoming absolutely perfect at violin. – But she was already-
– A virtuoso. – A virtuoso. She was already very good. We said all right, let’s
look at the business. And so, she started talking
about who she’s serving. Now, when you think about
a violin instructor, who really is their customer? She was teaching kids, but
kids cannot be your customer, they don’t have any money. I’ll teach a framework about how to think about who your customer is. She starts looking and
we start analyzing it. It turned out that her real customer was basically Asian and Jewish parents. Actually, Asian and Jewish mothers. Why do you think that is? They have money, they
have the ability to pay, and the willingness to pay. We call that the pay certainty technique. If you’re thinking about,
who am I actually serving, the pay certainty technique, do they have the ability to pay, and do they have the willingness to pay? So, she- – So, in the art world,
this’d be your photo editor, or your art buyer, your
producer, the art director. They technically are
the ones who hire you. Someone else writes the check, but that’s your customer. – Got it.
– Specifically. – Perfect. So then, we helped her go deeper. You can’t just put a
flyer together that says violin instruction, come
here, 50 dollars an hour. We taught her how to understand, what is it that these
mothers actually want? They’re mothers of kids. Now, yes they want their kids
to learn violin, but why? Let’s go further, why? It turned out that they
wanted them to become really good at this because there’s a heritage value of violin, but what they really wanted is for their son or daughter
to get into Harvard. That’s what they wanted! Believe it or not. That totally reframed the
way she positioned it. Her flyers now say,
little Timmy used to be so introverted, now he’s so extroverted and I think he’s gonna
get an amazing education. A mother reads that and she’s like, “Oh my God, they read my mind.” She earned, in eight weeks, 81,000 dollars doing violin instruction. She coulda spent 20 years- – I’m in the wrong line of business. (both laughing) – But, she coulda spent so much time focusing on the craft or just
like putting it out there, getting on Twitter, doing all this stuff, and that all matters, you
have to do some of that, but let’s understand the person
we’re trying to serve there. – Let’s take that no bullshit approach to photographers and directors and whatnot in the creative class here. How do they take that same step with the clients that I just mentioned? The photo editors, the art
directors, and whatnot. Let’s talk about what do
these photo editors want, and what do they fear? Too many people skip
over those two things. – Number one thing that they want, is they wanna be recognized by their peers within the magazine or within their agency for finding the next badass creative who’s doing cool stuff. Their fear is, and anyone at home or y’all in the audience can correct me, but I think having been doing this for a decade plus, I figured it out. Their fear is blowing it, bringing in someone who’s unqualified who hasn’t ability to do this work before. – Right, right. – Doesn’t have the ability, and hasn’t done this sort
of level of work before. They’re risk averse,
because usually that means if I blow this half a
million dollar campaign, my ass is out the door. What they’re really banking on when they bank on a
photographer and a big campaign is look it, we’re putting
the 300 thousand dollar production budget plus
the ad buy behind this. Lot of money, lot of zeros. Those are their fears, and often the ability to hire the best, the most perfect person, is undermined by the fear factor of well, I’d sure like to hire that new renegade
creative over there, but this dude’s done it a hundred times. Somewhere in the middle is
perfection, I feel like. Renegade, old-timer, somewhere in there is the sweet spot. – So think about how most photographers go about addressing these concerns. First of all, they don’t
even think about them. They just walk in and
they’re like, “Me, me, me.” They walk in with their portfolio, and they just (smacking)
put it down on the table, and they say, “There you go. “You make the decision.” As if this person is
supposed to understand all the intricacies about
why you’re qualified. Mistake number one is
expecting the other person to recognize your brilliance without you even communicating it. The next thing-
– Can we- – Yeah.
– Can we linger on that, for a second? Expecting the other person,
it’s almost, it’s ignorant to expect the other person to recognize your brilliance without
even communicating it. – You need to teach them
to revere what you’ve done. For example, when I give away
free material to my audience, and 90% of my stuff is free. Not only do I give it to ’em for free, but I teach them why
they need to revere it. I’ll say, for example, “Look guys, this webcast I
did with one of my mentors, “a professor from Stanford,
I’m giving it to you for free. “But I want to tell you, I
spent 16 hours preparing for-” – Hang on a second, Chase
Jarvis Live is free, (Ramit laughing)
but I want to tell you that I spent 10 years cultivating
all of the, blah, blah. Nevermind, just (mumbling). – I tell ’em that, no,
it’s, you know what? People, when they learn what
you did behind the scenes to prepare and all this
preparation you’ve done, all these people you’ve
brought into your crew, they appreciate you even more. When you go in to meet a client, you don’t just put down
your (smacking) portfolio, you say, “Let me explain,
for just 60 seconds “if you don’t mind, some of the thought that went into this,” and you explain why they should revere you
and what makes you different. That’s kinda number one. Don’t expect them to
recognize your brilliance. – I think we should say that again. Explain to them, what went
into creating the work, and why it’s different.
– Absolutely. – Why it’s unique. And in the world of art,
ladies and gentlemen, we remember from last Chase Jarvis Live, where we had Allegra Wilde
talking about portfolios, you don’t try to be better, you try and be different. Don’t try and be better,
try and be different. When you take that 60 seconds to explain and tell a story, great book by, I think is it Peter Guber, – Yeah
– Tell to Win? – Story, yeah.
– Tell to Win. Amazing, amazing book
about telling a story. You tell a story about
what you went through to create this work and why it’s different than what’s out there. – Yep.
– Got it. – Number two, and that
dovetails perfectly. They try to appeal to everybody. Huge mistake. This is like classic rookie mistake. They believe that, I just
need to appeal to everyone. – I shoot cats and I shoot houses, and I shoot weddings
and I shoot advertising and food, I shoot all that stuff, hire me. – Hire me. Let’s just do a scenario. Let’s pretend that I’m-
– Is this a role play? Cause I’m getting excited.
– It is, are you ready?
– I am getting excited. – I’m gonna be the woman in this. I’m a new mother. This is a perfect role for me.
(Chase chuckling) It adapts very well-
– You got the cardigan, I love it.
(Ramit laughing) – So, I’m a new mother, and I want a picture of my newborn son. I just got home, it’s two or three days after I gave birth. Who do I wanna hire? I have two choices of photographers. Do I wanna hire John Doe, who does photos of horses, barns, kids,
adults, and buildings? Or, do I wanna hire Richard Millinghouse, who photographs babies between the ages of two weeks and three months. – Enough said. – Clear, right? And by the way, does price matter? – At that point, when you’re talking about photographing your one and only child that you just gave birth to? It’s probably, when you say
literally does it matter, it becomes way less important
than you think it is. – Absolutely, so that is so important with photographers and
anyone in the creative world. Lot of times, we obsess about price. Well, how can I charge that much? This guy’s over here
charging 10 dollars a photo. How can I expect to
charge 100 dollars an hour or 10,000 dollars a project? When you can really hit on what they want, what they hope, fear, and dream, price becomes almost a mere triviality. It’s amazing. Mr. Richard Millinghouse
could come in and say, “Look, there are plenty of
other photographers out there. “In fact, I’m happy to
recommend some if you like. “I happen to be the only
one who focuses on it. “By the way, here are some
of my photos that I’ve done, “and here’s why they’re different “from some of the stuff you’ll find.” Notice, I haven’t been adversarial. I’ve been super friendly, and price is a distant fifth. – It’s vaporizing right now. – Absolutely, right, you can feel it. – I do, I’d wanna buy your baby photos. (both chuckling)
– My baby photos, yeah. Let me sell you some photography Chase. That would be my ultimate accomplishment. All these things kind of combine, when it comes to photographers
and other creative folks, that we think let’s
just appeal to everyone. It’s almost counterintuitive, but the narrower you go, especially when you’re starting off, the more that that specific person will pay essentially anything
to get what you want. I’ll just finish with one final thing. The craft is important, no doubt, but you have to understand
what your clients want. For example, I have a video crew, and I have some designers
on staff that work with me. Now, are there people that are probably, technically more skilled? Of course, there’s always somebody. – However-
– That’s why I advocate not trying to be better, but be different. – Yes.
– Okay. – They are different, indeed, because they know that what I
value is when I send an email, I want a response within one hour. That’s just how I want my business to run. They know that they need to
over communicate with me. So for me, communication matters way more than getting this perfect
shading or perfect color. It’s gonna be good, no doubt about that, but I would rather have someone, that for my business, serves me in the way that I want. Someone could come to me, and if they didn’t read
me right they would say, “Look at these 50 photos. “I used this type of film and
I used this type of lighting.” And I’m just like, “I don’t care. “Show me testimonials of how you’ve “communicated well with other people. “When you do that, price is out the door. “You’re focusing on what I want. “What I want, not you. “What I, the client, wants, and
price is just a triviality.” – So, at that point,
what we have to agree to, if I’m not mistaken and
correct me if I’m wrong, is that you have to do something to get inside the head of the person who’s trying to hire you. You have to understand what they want. You can make guesses,
and you can be wrong, but by and large, I think specifically within the photo industry, the people that hire you whether you’re a wedding shooter and it’s a bride, or whether it’s a photo
editor or something, are there steps that you can take? Should you be doing research? How do you understand, how do you advocate us understanding our clients? – The research is the secret sauce. This is what separates the people who can charge 100 times
what other people can, and honestly can just get cool projects, versus the other people who will scrape by for the
rest of their lives, and that’ll complain about the man, and if only I had that, then
I could get these clients. Let me just show you some
examples of research. Let’s say that you’re
a wedding photographer. You’ve decided to get into this space. You have some photos under your belt. Maybe you’ve done it informally and free for some friends. What would be a good way of doing it? First, I would wanna just start off by saying who I am trying to target. I’m not trying to target every person. – Every person who’s getting married. – Yeah, that’s gonna be a tough one. First of all, my customer is the bride. It’s certainly not the
groom, it’s the bride. Let’s just be specific. And by the way, I’m making
stereotypes right now. That’s okay. It’s okay to start off
with broad stereotypes, and then you test ’em. We do this. We call it the five minute
straight jacket technique. We turn off our phone,
turn off our computers. We basically just close our eyes, and we think, what is this
bride’s experience right now? She’s three months from the wedding. She’s feeling xyz. She’s go this to-do
list that’s not getting, everything’s getting added to it, and she wants to get
these beautiful photos. Why, why does she want these photos? She wants to show off. She wants to show it to her friends. She wants to have a memory. What does she not want? She doesn’t want a photographer who’s gonna show up late, who’s gonna do a horrible
job, blah, blah, blah. So, we just visualize this. We stereotype, we write it down. – It’s amazing how simple this is. How many in the audience, show of hands, have closed your eyes and thought, what do the people that want
to hire me actually want? Show of hands. Five of thirty.
– Yeah. Five of thirty, okay.
– Okay. So we do this thing, we’re sitting here, closed eyes, straight jacket technique, but then we need to take it another step. We have these stereotypes, these ideas. Let’s go test ’em. What I tell people is
turn off your computer, get out of your stupid room, go talk to the market. What I would do is find
women who were just married, recently married brides. I would say, “Do you mind if just “take you out to coffee for 15 minutes? “I’m trying to get into this. “I’m doing a little homework, “not trying to sell you anything. “Just curious about your experience, “and I would really appreciate your time.” If you send an email like that, especially through a warm friend- – This is so simple.
– Yeah. – No secrets.
– So simple. Send an email. Out of 10 emails you send, you will get at least three meetings. That’s a pretty good response rate. I take ’em out, and I’m just saying, “Tell me about your
experience with the wedding.” I just start off really broadly, and re-emphasize I’m not
trying to sell anything. Then ask them, “How did you
choose your photographer? “Were you happy, what
would you have changed? “If price was no object,
what would you have wanted?” Ask them about their feelings. How did they feel when they
chose the photographer? Why’d they choose this over that? Now you do this with 5 to 10 people. You start to hear words. For example, you’ll hear words like, “I wasn’t sure but my friend used him “and he was really good. “She was really happy with him.” Okay, that’s a really important thing. Or, “I loved how when he showed up, “he brought me a cup
of coffee that morning. “It showed that he was thoughtful.” That’s a check mark,
I’m writing that down. All of the sudden, now, you’re learning what actual customers have said. Guess what you do? Just like with Jackie, you go back, and in your marketing material, you put that in there. Now when you go to your potential clients, they’re like, “Oh my God- – They’re reading my mind.
– He read my mind. How did he do that? Well, he did it because
he did the hard work. – Well, that’s great. Again, I’m gonna reference last week’s Chase Jarvis Live with Allegra. She was saying, again, it’s the technical, you get in the door with
being a decent photographer, but when you’re in the sphere of being a great photographer, that’s when the cream rises to the top. It is, I gotta go to Barbados
for two weeks with this dude. Who do I wanna hang
out with for two weeks? I see him at six in the morning, and I see him at 10 at night, all day, every day for 20 days or 15 days. Who do you wanna be with? Things like, what kind of music you like, what kind of person
you are, having a blog, or some sort of social thing where you’re putting out the things that you are and aren’t. You shouldn’t be trying to
fool these people, right? – Exactly. – Talk about that for a second. – It’s so important to disqualify. So think about this, let’s just take it to men and women and attraction. I love this because
there’s so many analogies- – I love this too.
– I love it. So, let’s dim the lights please. – Yes please. – If I go to a bar and I’m like, “Please, please, please talk to me. “Please go on a date with me. “Please, please, please, please.” How do you think women react? They’re just like, you know, they don’t, however, if I walk in, I’m confident, I’m with my buddies having a drink, and you know, I’m just
like a confident guy that doesn’t need anything that night, the perception is totally different. The same thing is true when
you go talk to clients. I’m not walking in begging when I put my portfolio down. I’m saying, “Look, I’m
not right for everybody. “For the few people that I’m right for, “I do an extraordinary job. “I’m here to help figure
out what you want, “that’s-
– Both those are so quotable it makes me smile. I’m here, for what I do, I can deliver an extraordinary product. I can deliver extraordinary art. That, to me, and even
just saying those words, – Isn’t it rare?
– I’ve been in a thousand of these meetings. I’ve personally, with me as the artist, but I’ve also been a
part of other meetings where others are coming in and presenting. Those words never get said. – No, no, cause it almost is like, it seems like you have
to be arrogant to say it. Let’s listen to the way
that I say it again. I can do an extraordinary job. Not for everybody, but for the few people that I wanna work with, and that wanna work with me. Nothing about that was arrogant. I’m just being very matter of fact. You don’t have to come in like, “Yeah, I’m the best.” That’s not how you’re walking in. You’re being confident
about what you’re good at. – I’ve also seen a lot of people behave like d-bags,
(Ramit laughing) and that’s not cool either, right? – No, no. – But there is a way to
be confident and assertive without being presumptuous, without being a d-bag,
without being cocky. It’s, I think, accepting that you aren’t for everybody. Again, I’m gonna, the third time already, refer back to last week’s episode. Hey look it, I think you need to get hired by 10 to 20 folks, in my line of work at least. Wedding photographers might
be a little bit different. Studio, headshot photographers
could be different. I need to shoot, you know, if I shoot 10 to 20 campaigns a year, it’s an amazing year. You don’t have to appeal to everybody. As soon as you start trying
to appeal to everybody, you appeal to nobody,
so actually putting that on the table in the conversation, that’s what you’re advocating right? – That’s what I do with
my own business as well. For example, I tell people
if you have credit card debt, you’re not allowed to
buy my flagship course. You’re not allowed to,
I don’t allow you to. If I find out, I’ll refund your money, and I’ll ban you from
any course ever again. People are like, “What the fuck? “Who does that?” – Who doesn’t want to
take money from somebody? – Who doesn’t want to take
a lot of money from me? And yet, what does it do
for me, in my business? Yeah, it costs me a lot in the short term, but people know this guy isn’t just here to make a bunch of money
from me right up front. He’s here to help me
for the rest of my life. Now the same thing is true when
we go into meetings, right? You’re not going in there to convince them and trick them. You do want to show your best front, and you wanna have your messages that you wanna explain why might you be the best for this project. You’re never gonna try to trick them. No magical phrases. I’ll give you a bunch of phrases, but no magical phrase
will ever trick someone, and even if you do, you’ll
get found out later. You wanna be very clear
about who you’re targeting. Like with Jackie, she’s targeting a very specific type of customer. When you do that, that’s
why 80% of the work is done before you ever walk in the room. You’ve already-
– Okay, this is good. – Yeah, so-
– This is, everyone’s hand, everyone’s heads are
down, scribbling away. – So number one, who am I going after? It’s not everyone. We’re using that five minute
straight jacket technique, and we’re using the pay
certainty technique. Do they have the ability to pay? And, do they have the willingness to pay? All right. – Most people in our line of work do. There’s a lot of shooting weddings. I know people that make
a million dollars a year shooting weddings, so there’s money there. With maternity photography,
there’s money there. Certainly with advertising, galleries, high end fine art, there’s
a lot of money there. That doesn’t tend to be a problem, that can they pay. Yes, they can pay.
– Excellent. So then, we’ve talked about who are they, do they have the ability and
willingness to pay, great. Now, we’re gonna start generally stereotyping in our head, that
straight jacket technique. What is their experience? What are they looking for? Then, we’re gonna test it. Then, we’re gonna go into these meetings, and we’re gonna have scenario planned out every which way that they could do it. Notice, by the way, that
what I’m talking about is not taking massive shortcuts. I actually believe, to get
disproportionate results, you gotta work twice as
hard as someone else, But if you work on the right things, you can get five times the results. It’s a totally different mindset than most people think. They’re like, “Let me just continue “sending out these pitch books, “blah, blah, blah,” nothing will happen. I’m like, “Let’s do a
bunch of work up front,” and then if you do it right, this other person’s gonna go like this, and you’re spending a lot time here, and all of the sudden,
you’re gonna surpass them. You go into these meetings, and now you’re using your words. You’re using your phrases. You’re talking about negotiation. You’re talking about why
you do extraordinary work, and am I right, I’m not sure, but let me tell you a
little bit about what I do, and how I might be able to help you. So, we talked about the
briefcase technique. Should we talk about that? – Oh yeah, this is amazing. – All right.
– You could just right now, call it the briefcase technique, you should put it in boldface in whatever note device
you’re taking right now, cause this shit blew my mind when he told it to me and- – So let me show-
– Again, I have to confess, I have been doing this, showing my portfolio for 10 plus years, and getting super kick ass jobs. I started doing this, and it was like (snapping) a light switch. Scott, who’s helped me
do a lot of this work is on camera A right there, or camera two, I think, will back me up. It’s incredibly effective. – This is a simple technique. It’s generated several
millions of dollars. – It’s laughable how easy it is. – It is, it’s unbelievable. In fact, people, especially
technical people, are really skeptical, they’re like, “This sucks for me. “This is so salesy, it doesn’t work.” And then I’m like, “Oh really? “Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.” 50 testimonials of how it’s generated 70% raises and things like that. Let me show you how it works. You go into a meeting, and you’re talking to your client or the hiring manager, whoever it may be. You start by asking a lot of questions. Tell me about kind of
what you’re looking for, and oh, that’s interesting. How have you thought about xyz, and what are the issues
you’re thinking about? You’re just asking great questions. – Ask great questions is, I can not overstate how important that is, especially in a creative, because you’re getting hired to solve a creative problem. So ask a lot of questions. – Ask great questions. And so they’re saying, “You know, “our biggest challenges are x, y, and z. “And we’re really confident about abc, “but we’re just not sure about this.’ You say, “Okay, that’s really interesting, “so I had a few thoughts. “Would it be okay if I share
some of them with you?” You’re asking permission, cause you want to get their respect. They say, “Of course.” You say, “Well, you know I actually “prepared a couple things, I wonder “if you’d like to see it?” Then you literally
theatrically go like this- – You reach down into
– Into your briefcase- – Your portfolio.
– Or your portfolio, or your back, whatever it is, you say, “There’s actually four things “that I would think about. “Take a look at this.” You say, “Let me walk you through it. “When I look at your website, or “I look at the project
that you’ve outlined, “the first thing I thought was abc.” At this point, they’re like this, they’re going, “Yeah.” They can’t stop nodding, and they almost can’t stop smiling. It’s happened hundreds of times. Why, why does this work? Let’s talk about a couple reasons. The psychology’s totally fascinating. First of all, nobody does this. People walk in, and they’re
just like, “Oh yeah.” They ask stupid questions and then they just try to sell themselves. They believe that a client meeting, or a interview or negotiation, is about answering questions. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. An interview’s not about
answering questions. It’s about telling your story, and communicating your main messages. When people go into a job interview, or a prospect meeting, it’s not about answering
the prospect’s questions. Yes, you have to do that, just like you have to
be good at your craft. But, you have to communicate
your message of why. Second, when you pull out
your briefcase technique, what it means is holy shit, this guy has done a ton of work outside this meeting,
before he got in the room, which automatically separates
you from everyone else. What do other people do? They just walk in and
they answer questions. Third, the things you’re writing on this, are the exact words that you
learned from your research, when you talked to the
other brides or mothers. So they’re like-
– Or art directors, or creative directors, or art buyers, ad agencies, or photo editors. – Exactly. You are literally using their words. You’re looking at them and that’s why they’re going like,
“Yeah, yeah, oh my God. “He knew this before
I even said it,” yeah. – So what you’re doing in that case, I’m gonna continue to verbalize using my industry’s words. You’re gonna say that they thought about, your client might think this is too risky, but here are some ways
that you can talk to them about overcoming the risk, or that it’s really not risky. It might be more risky to
look like everybody else, instead of looking like-
– Perfect. – Something, something
adventurous and forward thinking. – Perfect. – When you sit down,
I’m just theorizing now, when you sit down with
the wedding photographer, it’s like when you sit down to show your wedding photographs to your friends, what you wanna be able to show is something that is different than the ones that they
showed to their friends. That’s a goal, perhaps. – I have a new addition to this, that I haven’t really shared publicly. I’d like to share it right now. This is version two of
the briefcase technique, and I’ve been testing
it, it works really well. One thing that people love, is they love these kind of high notions, like an outline of the things
that you’re talking about, but they also love to get really tactical. What I like to do now, if it’s for a job in a job interview, I like to do a 30, 60, 90 day plan. What will I do in the first 30 days, 60 days, and 90 days. People look at it and
they’re like, “Oh my God.” Their jaw drops. Now with a creative project, you could say in the first week, I’d wanna do research. I’d wanna study what
other people have done, and my deliverable would
be, “blah, blah, blah.” And then in the second
week, and in the third week, and in the fourth week I would deliver the pictures to you and
we could do a review. What this does for people, especially the art directors and things, totally mitigates their risk. Now, they have a piece of paper and they’re just like, “This is it.” They look at it and they’re like, “I can delegate this to this person. “I trust him,” and it’s a done deal. You’ve moved price to the
fifth or tenth concern, and now they have a document. There’s something
profound about a document, rather than just talking about it. It means you’ve prepared it on paper, and people just, they’re blown away. – I read a study recently that was, it was a study of 10,000
negotiations over 12 years, or some absurd, gigantor study, and there was one thing in common that produced a successful sale or license, or win, for
the purveyor of the goods. That was, one indicator, and that was who did the most talking. In all of the most
successful negotiations, the prospect, or the potential higherer, did the most talking. I mean, we’re talking high
end research, I think it was Oxford or MIT, some crazy ass research that said that if you
can get the other person to do most of the talking,
tell them your problems, that is the biggest hurdle. It really sends this message
that I’m getting from you, which is that you’ve been
thinking about their problems, not just how do I pitch you my shit. I understand that I’m
solving problems for you. The irony is if you can
be crazy ass creative, and show them just the
most beautiful work, and have this sort of
head on your shoulders, and you don’t need to be in there slick, you can be humble and say, “Yeah, prior to our meeting, “I’ve been thinking about this a lot, “and I think this is,
positioning it like this, “I went out and shot some
test stuff for example, “and this is your last ad layout, “I just put my images in it-
– Love that. – “but, this is the sort
of thing I’m going for.” Now that takes balls or huevos or ovaries or whatever we wanna talk
about here, whatever signifier. When you actually can say what you think, and believe it deeply in
every pore in your body, that comes across so convincingly. – Yeah, it does. Let’s deconstruct that, cause
I think that’s so fascinating. Why don’t most people spend more time asking questions? I’ll tell you why. They believe that a prospect
meeting, or an interview, is about answering questions. They basically walk into a
room and they say (smacking), – “I’m here.”
– “I’m here. “What would you like to ask me?” Wrong! (hands slapping) You already lost, because everyone else is doing the exact same thing. They’re just waiting. Wrong! You walk in there, and you say, “I am thrilled to be here. “I have been thinking about this all week, “and I have a bunch of ideas. “Actually, I have a bunch of questions “if it’s okay to ask you, “but it’s your meeting, so
love to have you begin.” Now, what happens there, you’re gonna start leading
by asking questions, you’re letting them talk and guess what? People, it’s rare in this world that people actually feel understood. So, when you ask these three or four or five great questions, they’re like, even though you
don’t even offer a solution, just the fact that you
asked the right question. They’re like, “Yeah, this guy gets me.” It’s an uncanny thing, when someone asks the right questions, you feel like you’re understood. And then if you kind of double-take it with a briefcase technique
or a portfolio technique, done, it’s a done deal. (Chase laughing) – It’s like the one-two punch, ha-ki-gah! (Ramit laughing) All right, cool. Let’s take two second, I wanna go, I don’t know which camera’s live cause the tally lights
aren’t working very well, but I’m gonna go to Scott’s camera, cause I think that’s what’s happenin’. I’m Chase Jarvis, you’re
here at Chase Jarvis Live. I’m with Ramit Sethi, number one Amazon, New York Times bestselling author of this fancy book here, I
Will Teach You to be Rich, and we’re talkin’ specifically
about how to apply, you’re a behavioral
psychologist by nature, how to specifically apply those ideas to selling or promoting your own art. We, as artists, are terrible at this. It’s a known fact, so go
ahead and ask some questions at #cjlive, use my Twitter
handle @chasejarvis. Of course you should also be
following @ramit, R-A-M-I-T. We’ll go to the phones in just a second. I’m gonna turn to the audience and say, at this point, we’re kind
of 30, 40 minutes in. If you don’t have any questions, I’m going to be embarrassed and upset. Put you hand in the
air and ask a question, because there’s gotta be
something very specific. Yes, sir, you went first. Oh, use the mic if you would. – A lot of what you’re talking about is how to interact with people after you’ve actually
had a sit down with them, and you have touched a little bit on being able to differentiate the market that you’re going after. I’m trying to get a greater understanding what your thought is on
how we as photographers can go after those market
segments specifically to be able to maybe stir
up those initial contacts. – So how do you get to even
get in front of someone that could potentially
hire you, great question. The typical way, I think
that photographers do it, is they take a bunch of photos
and they put it on a website, and then they set up Twitter and Facebook, and then they wait. Where are the people?
(Chase chuckling) Where are my multi-thousand
dollar clients? Where are they? The thing I would suggest is, I actually prefer going direct. My goal, when I teach my students to begin kind of freelancing, I tell them they have one goal. In eight weeks, their goal is to get three paying clients. It does not matter what the price is. It doesn’t matter if they even offer you an insulting fee, that’s fine. Three, why three? Cause your first client might be your mom, second one might be your cousin, but the third one’s not a fluke. Third one means you’ve
got something going on, where three people have paid you. Here’s how I do it. I do my initial research. Remember where I go out to the market and I kinda ask these questions, at the end, hopefully they
like me enough, right? I’ve said a couple things, they like me. I say, “You know, I’m
not ready to do this yet, “but I’m probably gonna start
doing it in a couple months. “Do you think there might be “anyone that might be interested in this?” Totally low-key, I’m
not being salesy at all. If they like you, they’ll say, “You know what, yeah, actually,
I have a couple friends. “Let me introduce you.” Okay great, now here’s
where most people fall down. They just say, “Okay, thanks a lot,” and they go home and wait
for that to happen to them. Wrong. Again, you’ve already lost if you do that. Instead, what I do is I follow
up with an email and say, “Hey, thanks very much
for meeting, loved it, “and I’m happy to take you
out to coffee any time. “You mentioned Ali and
Jen, and if you don’t mind, “I’d love for an introduction. “In fact, here’s a forwardable
email, if it helps. “Feel free to forward it or edit it, “just to make your life easier.” So, I’m being kind of really helpful, and then I’m getting
introductions that way. That’s one. The second way is, so that’s kinda using the referral strategy. The second is to become a thought leader. Now this is a bit of a long-term play, so especially people who
live in smaller cities, imagine doing an art critique, or even doing a free
column for the local paper. I’m just giving out simple examples. Or working with the local blogs. This is more of a long-term play, because it’s kind of like, where are you getting these clients from, it’s gonna take you a while. When you become the photographer who does an analysis every
week in the local paper, and you say, “Here’s how
to take a great photo, “and here’s what most people
are doing when they do photos,” you instantly become the
go-to guy, or the go-to woman. There are two routes that I would do. I like the first, the direct route, going to find people directly, sending those emails and saying, “Hey, love to take you out to coffee,” and then giving them a
really soft incentive to kind of share with their friends. – That’s beautiful. Beautiful. I went to the phones.
– All right. – Focal Matter asked this question, which I thought was pretty funny. @focalmatter, “I have a nine to five job. “How do I successfully transition “out of this nine to five job “into a full time life as a creative?” I want to stab at this if-
– Yeah, please. – I wanna hear what you have to say but, cause this is something I’ve talked at length about online, when I give talks in
front of large audiences, because it’s a very popular question. The answer is, I can’t believe this isn’t taught in business school, because I think it’s one
of the most important, sort of real-world
techniques that you have to, you have to be able to be
juggling this over here, and then throw this ball up, or you have to be juggling this and throw this ball up, and go over here and work like mad. It sounds very, very strange, but in our modern world, if you want something, there is ample time for you to go get it. If Tim Ferriss was sittin’ right here, he would remind us to prioritize
the things in our lives. If you can keep your nine to five happy, actually in the hours of nine to five, my God, there’s so much other time. Transitioning into that
means doing all these things like you talked about,
doing the market research. Again, we’re assuming that
your pictures kick ass. We’re assuming that your video kicks ass. If you need to start there, with the fundamentals of
making your pictures good, then definitely start there. Once you have that quality, then it’s about identifying
your target market, the straight jacket technique, preparing, identifying your clients. Who do you want to do, work with? To me, that’s one of the
most important things. Do you try, my hit list is 20 people deep. It’s not 200, it’s 20. There are photographers who
will send out 1,000 mailers. It’s just like carpet bombing. – You’ve done something
wrong, if you have to do that. – Yeah. – You’ve already messed up, cause you’re just playing the same game that everyone else is playing. There’s always gonna be someone better, with more time, with more money, that could just carpet
bomb a larger audience. You’ve already lost, if that’s
the game you’re playing. The game happens. It’s almost a game that’s
being played around you, that you can’t even see. It’s an invisible game of
who makes the right decisions before they ever get to that meeting. Who decides who they’re gonna target, what are they gonna say, how are they gonna get in their heads? Then, when you get there, to the outside person it seems magical. (snapping fingers) How does Chase get into these meetings (snapping) and he just closes them left and right? Well, Chase did all the work beforehand. – Right, there’s this belief-
– And now when he walks in- – That you didn’t have to do the work, or that somehow, yeah,
that’s bullshit for sure. I think I can say that with basically everyone who I employ. There’s a very specific story around that, and Norton is a great example. Norton was living, if I’m
not mistaken, in Brazil, and he wanted to come to the US to learn from photographers. Ernie should wave to the camera, I think they’re gonna put you on camera. (Ramit and Chase chuckling) Norton moved from Brazil to Florida because he wanted to get closer to the American photography scene. In Florida, he was
acquainted with my work, and he freakin’ quit everything
and moved to Seattle. Not with the prospect of, “Oh, Chase and I had a conversation. “He’s probably gonna hire me.” He’s like, “If I’m gonna try and get a job “from this guy, I gotta be around. “That’s my number one thing.” This is what I’m talking about, I’m saying doing the homework. How many of you all
are willing to do that, to get a client, to get a job? That takes those huevos,
those ovaries, those balls that we were talkin’ about earlier. To me, that’s the homework. I think, if you’re seguing or segmenting, yeah, seguing out of your nine to five, you have to do the work. You have to be great at your craft. You have to do the work, and at some point, you’re
gonna start earning money. You’re gonna shoot on the weekends, then you’re gonna shoot after work, and whether you’re
shooting the club scene, or portraits, have a photo
studio in you garage. And then when you start to
have enough money over here, you start to look over here. That starts being less exciting, and then you take the ball that you were throwing up
really high at your job, and you move that over, and you just juggle with these two hands, and you tell your boss to kiss it. (Ramit chuckles) – Yeah, you know for us, when we did our research on people earning money on the side, which has a lot of close analogies to what we’re talking about here, that there were two huge barriers. Number one, I don’t have an idea. Number two, I don’t have enough time. We actually have a two-hour time clinic on how to save, basically, I think it’s three to five hours a week. I can send it to your readers, if you guys want. – Wow.
– Let me get it put together for my staff. We have a URL actually
set up for you guys, but I’ll make sure that they, they’re watching right now, hey guys, so make sure they
put the time clinic on there. – It’s-
– Time clinic. – Yeah, it’s a time clinic. Iwillteachyoutoberich.com/chase and they’ll go there and
they can just sign up, and we’ll send them the
time clinic for free. – Wow. – So I think they’ll like that. – Hopefully your staff is running around, just started stirring.
– They’re like, “Oh shit, Ramit, not again.” (both laughing) – Oh, promises, take a picture. This is with the new Polaroid Z340. (camera clicking)
Boom, take that! – Nice.
(hand smacking) – Goin’ back here, for some questions. Let’s have it. Come on, put your hand in the air and wave it like you just don’t care. If I don’t get one, I’m
gonna be disappointed. Yep, you know you wanted to ask it. Fire away. – In a market like Seattle. It’s not a huge market. You’d mentioned about, you know, I don’t want to be the
guy who does everything, but could you talk a little bit how the market and the size of the market depends on that. Sometimes, if you’re in a small market, you kinda have to do more than just I can’t shoot pictures
of whatever it might be. I’ve gotta kinda be a little bit of a jack of all trades in order to have those multiple income streams to make it, especially in this economy. So, could you talk a
little bit about that? In the Seattle market especially, how that’s, how you can do that. – Yeah, a couple things. Certainly, when you start off, it might be the case that you have to do a jack of all trades. Unless you want to do that forever, then you quickly want to figure out, where can I, what’s the
most profitable way, and the most enjoyable
thing that I can do? If it’s taking pictures of pets, great. Remember that, when you
find 1, 2, 3, 5 clients, they all have friends that
probably would be interested. A couple things happen. One, as you start to do all these things, you start to say, which of these is gonna give me the closest to my goals? For example, it might
be that taking pictures of brides is highly, highly lucrative, and that’s what you want. Your goal is to make money. Okay, great. Or it might be that you want a lifestyle where you can just shoot on the weekends and not during the week, fine. So you find those people, get a couple of those clients, and then you can do a couple things. One is, you can ask them for referrals. Who do they know? Soon, you become basically the go-to guy. Now, this doesn’t happen over night. It takes a long time, but for example, when people talk about
financial automation, they come to me. I have become known as that guy. Or, psychology of money, they come to me. Now, do they come to me for budgets? No, and that’s okay. The second thing is to also broaden the vision of thinking about it. Yes, you may be local here in Seattle, but remember that there is a huge amount of work outside of
Seattle that you could do. It could be that you do it online. It could be that you fly somewhere. There are a variety of different ways, and I understand there are certain particulars about photography. It’s tough, especially
when you’re starting out, but remember that for the
people that work for me, for example, I haven’t met some of them and they’ve worked for me for over a year. There are other people, especially now, it’s crazy right, crazy.
– Yeah, it’s so cool. There are a lot of different
ways you can do it, besides just thinking
about working locally. Think broadly, think
in a kaleidoscope way, and realize that there are tons of people who want awesome photographers with awesome communication skills, and all these other skills that most creative people
don’t think about at all, and realize that there are an unlimited number of
those people out there. – That’s beautiful, I’m gonna second that. The fact that I live in Seattle is an anomaly to most of my peers, like wow, how’d he do that. I do spend a lot of time in
New York, months at a time. We have lived in Paris. The idea, however, is that I have projected a global image. I do travel a lot, but that has to do with picking the people that I want to work with more than
anything in the world, and targeting them
regardless of geography. Who do my skills match up with? Not being afraid to say that, and to let them know that this is what I want to solve this
particular problem for you. I’m a great match with your need, and being able to prove it through the briefcase technique, through other work that
I’ve done, et cetera. It is a global economy now, I mean we’re taking questions right now from all over the world. If that had any, if anyone was doubting if it’s a global economy, the example of sitting here in this room should remind us that it is. But specifically, have the huevos to think larger than Seattle. 10% of my work comes from this city. 10%, and I have called this place home for the duration of my
professional career. I think that there’s
something to think about that goes beyond geography. I don’t know, I’m sort of
losing my train of thought, but I’m gonna go back to the phones- – Let’s do it.
– if I can. I don’t know if you felt like
we got to what you were after. Hey Norton, will you grab that other, you had another great question that came in through some, I’m not able to keep up with the feed cause it’s going so fast. Ambient Magic asks, “If you have quality content
and decent web traffic, “how do you turn those views into sales?” – Ah.
– So, so, this is, yeah, hang on just one second Norton. This is a really interesting question because mostly, now it has to do very much with what kind
of photography you’re into, because people that check out my site, I don’t necessarily try and convert them. It’s not really a conversion thing, where I get ’em in there, and I move ’em through
the marketing funnel, and then I get a sale.
(Ramit chuckling) I think it could be more like that in a portrait or a maternity or a wedding sort of environment, but what I try and
project is great pictures. I keep them coming back by doing really, really
interesting personal projects This also is, this is
like doing your homework, it’s very analogous, except the homework that I’m doing is super creative shit that I know that they want, and that has to do with
the straight jacket. I think about, boy, what’s gonna get them? It’s gonna be something
they haven’t seen before. I’m out there trying to do things that people haven’t seen before, and I’ve cited a number of examples. Songs for Eating and
Drinking is a great example of a project that I did that
had no financial benefit, in fact, I paid a lot of
money to make it happen, that people, art directors
are constantly thinking about, “Aw man, I want to be around rock stars, “and be in the cool pictures, “and having dinner with 40
really fascinating people,” and the pictures that come
out of that are amazing. It’s another sense of
actually doing homework. When they come to your site, in the photography world
it’s less of a turn-key, click here, here are my rates. It can be, again, I’m
trying to speak broadly. I feel like it’s getting
them to understand that over and over,
you are their solution. When you start to think about
who is coming to your site, or you can find out who’s
coming to your site, you proactively go to them with a meeting, and you say, “I can tell
you’ve been on my site,” or “I’ve started marketing to you. “I don’t know if you’ve
seen my site lately, “I got these new projects. “I wanna talk to you about ’em.” It’s a very, very proactive deciding who you wanna work with
and going after them fact, rather than this is
what he just described, or she, Ambient Magic just described, is the “I made some good stuff “and now I’m sitting back and waiting.” – Right, right. Well, they’re waiting because it’s a classic thing that we do. Again, they’re waiting for someone to recognize their brilliance, instead of going out there and understanding what people want. People don’t just want the picture. In fact, there’s probably
100 other photographers who could do that same photo. They want the story. They want the narrative. They want the communication. They want their problems solved. You gotta understand, first of all, what are those problems
that they want solved? Articulate it, put it on your website, and if you want, you know there’s a bunch of tactics we can talk about. You can create tee shirts or you can sell prints, or whatever, but remember that you have to communicate that story to them. One other tactic I’ll share, probably the biggest
business mistake I made, I mentioned this earlier. – Wow.
– Was- – This is the biggest business mistake the business guru has made. – Not starting an email list early enough. My email list is my crown jewel. These are the people that signed up. They love me enough to open my emails. I only send ’em great stuff. Guess what, all these people come to your site every day, it’s mentioned that they
have decent traffic. Let’s say you get 20
people a day to sign up, or at one point 100, 200, that’s a lot. You don’t have to sell them anything. Hey, I’m workin’ on this project. Hey, I’m gonna be out in Seattle, would love to do a meetup with you guys, and one day when you have a project that you want to sell, or you say, “I have some open time “and I’m taking a couple
of commissions right now.” Guess what? 5000 people just received that email. Do you think you’re gonna get one or two sales from that? Of course. Starting an email list,
it’s really simple. There’s tons of tools out there. I use Aweber, you can
use whatever you want. These people wanna listen to you. Send ’em great stuff,
nurture the relationship, and by the time you go
to ask for something, they will love you so much that they’d be happy to do it. – Beautiful. Another question from the Twitosphere. This is from Nicole Notes. “What if my husband is the photographer, “and I’m the communicator? “How can we work the
briefcase scenario together?” Now, so what I’m thinking is she’s the sales person in the arrangement, not necessarily in the family, that they sell together. So he’s the photographer, they go out, she sells the thing. In my opinion, you
should chime in on this, but the creative needs
to do the presentation. The business folk, like I
have a business manager, Gerard, he’s in the house, right there back with headphones
on, what, what, buddy. In the case we get called in on a really cool project, I have vision going in. The briefcase technique
I learned from you, it’s not literally sometimes a briefcase, it’s actually just being able to articulate the vision
that you have for the client. So Gerard makes the meeting, shows up at the meeting, and
as soon as he gets there, it’s like, okay, I’m
communicating with the client, and I wanna present Chase. Chase is here to talk to you a little bit about the work. It’s always very gracious, and having some social gratitude without being slick and cheesy is helpful. I proceed to lay out my vision, after we’ve asked all the questions, after we’ve done the stuff
that you talked about, getting the other folks to
say what their problems are. You say, “Great, I’ve heard what you said, “and I actually prepared something.” Then I will lay that out. I think it’s the creative
that needs to do that because that’s where the
vision is coming from. Then, that’s when you kick it back to your communicator. In this case, the wife,
if I’m not mistaken. Then the wife’ll like, “Okay, cool, I hope “that resonates with ya. “We’ll follow up this meeting.” Then she’ll sort of close the meeting, a lot of hand shakes and gratitude, and then good follow up is
really, really important. So, do you have anything
to comment about that? – Just a couple things I wanna hook your audience up with. First of all, I agree it’s funny that sometimes people believe that they don’t have enough time to learn the marketing part of it. I knew this restaurant owner near me. I wrote most of my book
at this coffee shop. I mentioned to him one day, “Hey, what about marketing this and that,” because I became friends with him. He said, “Yeah, yeah I know
I really should do that. “I don’t have time to do it.” His restaurant shut down not long after. I agree that you always, if you’re the creative person, you need to take the time to be able to articulate your vision. Otherwise, it just looks like you’re delegating it off to someone else, and you’re just the technician. That’s not a role you wanna be in. – That’s a great idea,
let’s say that again. You do not wanna be the technician. You wanna be the vision. – Yeah, that’s right. A technician is a commodity, like salt. Do I care if I have one brand
of salt, or another brand? No, fuck no, they’re the same to me. One dollar, I don’t care,
they’re a commodity. Someone who has a vision, someone who has a narrative, a story, and can walk in and show
me why it’s right for me? Price out the door, and I want you. I want to work with you. You do not want to be a commodity, you want to be a visionary. – You do not wanna be a commodity. You wanna be the one who has the vision. Cause that’s ultimately
what they’re buying, right? They’re not buying a finger
presser button person. They’re not buying a monkey with a finger. They’re buying someone
who’s going to bring vision. If you can not use the English language, or the French language,
or the Spanish language, or whatever language you’re workin’ in, cause I know we’ve got people from all over the globe
watching right now. Whatever language you’re using to articulate your vision, you have to be skilled at that. – Let me do another
thing for your readers. We have some interview
tear downs I recently did. So we took people-
– This is like value day for us.
– Well I wanna (laughs) (Chase laughing)
– Thank you so much. – I just realized we have all these videos and I wanna hook ’em up, so we brought these people in and they actually did
an interview with me. And I was like, I pretended
to be a pretty tough guy. They gave me their interview, and then I said, “All right, “here’s how you can take
it from 85% to 99%.” I actually showed them the phrases to use, including how to negotiate their salary. Let me send some of those
to your students as well. – Can you give us some examples right now, – Yeah.
– Or would that just be- – No, no, no.
– Would it be difficult to- – Let’s do it.
– So what we’re gonna say right now is specific wording to help you increase
the value of your work. Is that right?
– That’s right. – And then, we’ll share these also on Iwillteachyoutoberich.com/Chase. If you go there, we’ll
give you these videos, and you can see the before and afters. It’s so awesome. You have to see them. For example, there’s something we call a competence trigger, and it’s basically what
really competent people do. For example, I mentioned the bar example. If I walk in and I’m just
looking around like this, that’s a low competence trigger. It’s clear that I’m kind
of like a low status guy. If I walk in like, “Come on, please.” If I walk in and I’m
just confident and cool, I’m having a good time with my buddies, that’s a high competence trigger, because people with
high confidence do that. It signals everyone else, like oh, this guy probably
know what he’s talking about. Let me give you an example, when you walk into a job interview or a prospect interview, a lot of times- – I should say that I get, once I’m up for a job, they will interview several creatives. There’ll be four creative on the, not necessarily on the phone at one time, but they’ll have calls
with two or three people. You have to turn in an estimate, which is how much you’d do the job for. You have to turn in,
sometimes, a treatment, and then they’re gonna
get on the phone with you. This happens at the highest
end of advertising photography. You do this. It’s literally like an interview, so, – Let’s talk about, I want to give you a scenario that happens in job interviews, and then we can apply it to photography. In job interviews, one
thing that they’ll try to do is they’ll try to say, “Okay, what’s your rate,” or “What’s your expectation of salary?” Now, what a low-quality person
will do is they’ll be like, “Uh, well, I made 35,000 at my last job and I’m hoping to make 37.” Wrong. What they already thought is, this is a low status performer, and I’m gonna basically
give him 36, and we’re done. Even though they have a budget for 60. You just effed yourself. On the other hand, a high
status performer goes like this, they go, “Oh you know what? “We can discuss salary later, “I’m more than happy to discuss it. “Right now, I just wanna see if “it’s a good fit for both of us.” What are doing there? We’re deferring salary until later, and right now, we’re just seeing if it’s a good fit for both of us. What’s the key there? It’s not just you deciding
if you want to work with me, I’m actually deciding if
I want to work with you. It’s a back and forth. Let’s try to apply that
to photography now. When you walk-
– I already did it in my head, but I’m sure you should actually do it, cause it’s what goes on in the high level communication conversations
that you’re talking about. Walk us through it, go ahead. – The meta message is so important. When you walk into a room, you are not walking in
as a desperate beggar, even if you really want this client. Counterintuitively, if you
really want this client, you want to explain to them
that you have many options. Not in a sort of derogatory-
– Not at all, yeah, it’s very important. This is a subtle hit here. – You have to just be confident that you’re good enough that you will get other clients. There are other people
knockin’ on the door, even if you haven’t heard them knock yet. You walk in, and in language
and the way you communicate, you’re saying, “Let’s just see
if it’s a good fit right now. “We can deal with the details later, “but right now, I just want to see “if it’s a good fit for both of us.” Why, because you are selecting them as much as they’re selecting you. It’s funny, when I say this, people, either they’re like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah,” or they’re like, “Ramit, that doesn’t work until “you’re making 25,000
dollars a sale or whatever.” Well, it does. Your message starts with
the way you communicate, even if you don’t have other options, you want to let them know that you are a discerning photographer. You’re not just a desperate photographer, you’re actually discerning. When you do that, they
actually like you more. – The first job, the first rate that I was ever hired
for to shoot new material was thousands of dollars for a day. I did that before I’d ever
shot editorially at all. This is like a total confession here, on the old internet-
– Love it. – It was exactly that. I had decided I wasn’t
gonna take a shit job just to get a job. At that point, I was waiting tables. I was doing work that needed to be done to pay the bills. On one side, this is the transition from nine to five, but even my very first commission was more than I had
made the previous year. It was several days at several
thousand dollars a day, and I basically just used
exactly that technique without knowing what it was called or what the hell I was doing. But, and it was very, very effective, and the thing is, is
that I actually meant it. – Right, and they can tell. People are pretty
sophisticated at those levels. – Saying these words
and meaning what you say are different things. – Another thing that I wanna recommend that your viewers and everybody
here do is build a pipeline. Too often, we get this thing, one-itus. When it comes to men and women, we pick someone and
we’re obsessed with them. Like, “Oh I hope they return my text. “Oh please, they haven’t
returned it in three days. “What does it mean?” Well, when you have one prospect that you’re hoping and counting on, you can actually turn into, you get a little desperate. You walk into the room and
you actually telegraph it, even though you don’t say it-
– She’s here. – Yeah, they can tell, they can tell. But what if you had a pipeline of 5 or 10 or 15 people that you had coffee meetings with? And you’ve been doing all
this behind the scenes? So when you walk in, you actually know. You know what, if I lose
this deal, that’s okay. I have 14 other people that I’m talking to in the next two weeks. How do you get those things? Let’s also do another thing,
for my staff watching. Let’s give some scripts that we use to get meetings with people. I want to include some email scripts that we actually use-
– Wow. – And we tested with thousands of people. So you send these out and they will actually get you meetings. Coffee meetings, where you can actually basically get to know people. Another thing we’ll put in the vault for your Chase Jarvis-
– Screw chasejarvis.com/blog it’s all about
iwillteachyoutoberich.com/chase. – We’ll put those email scripts
up later today, tomorrow. Gonna hook your readers up. – Beautiful, God. I like the idea, though,
that you have to believe, that you have to have conviction. If you lose the one-itus, and you have a lot of
prospects in the pipeline, that should give you confidence necessary to act and behave the way that I think is gonna send the right mojo. Another great question came in. From Iris Eban, says, “Chase, describe your first gig “you landed as a photographer “and pitch you absolutely bombed at. “What did you learn from each?” The first gig that I got probably not at liberty to talk about, there’s just so many contractual things about who it was, but it was a large, billion plus dollar company and it is something I had done exactly what you’re talking about. Which is develop a relationship
with them over time, through finding out who
the decision-makers are, doing the homework, sitting
down and having coffee. I made it known that I was a photographer to this person through
a set of numbers of, I think, unique correspondence via email or sending a cool thing. Equivalent of a portfolio, but it was a cool package. When I was able to get a meeting, there was an element of
timing that I wasn’t aware of that worked really good, and that’s where being prepared, and where luck is. Being prepared at the right time. Fell into my lap. And when the negotiations, I didn’t have an agent at the time. I didn’t have a producer,
I didn’t have anything. It was just me, so I was the one doing the negotiation. We went away and I went home, and I read a lot about negotiation. Then we came back to the table, and used a lot of these techniques. I decided that coming in
at a very, very low rate, I’ve never seen a photographer
who came in at a low rate suddenly get paid a high rate. You will get sold the idea that this is how much money I have right now. If you just come in and do this, I will, you know, you’ll get more later. That’s not what happens,
because if you come in at 1000 dollars, when
they get 50,000 dollars, do you think they’re gonna go, “My 1,000 dollar person “is gonna be a great 50,000
dollar photographer.” Hell no. I didn’t want that happen to me, so I went in as a high priced option. I actually didn’t believe that
I was going to get the job, because I was gonna be too high priced. The irony is that when they said, “Okay, that sounds good. “We’ll send you a PO and you
can send us the contract.” I just, in my head, went, “Oh shit, I shoulda
asked for twice as much.” That, in and of itself, is a
whole, another conversation. Do you want to be the “Ah, boy, what I see here is so great. “I’m just gonna have
to go back to my budget “and get a little bit more, “then we’re gonna do the deal.” That’s ideally, then the
person feels like they, you feel like you went on a limb, and they feel like they went on a limb, and there’s a lot of charged
energy in the project. I think that’s really positive. It can also be negative
if you push that too far, so I wouldn’t encourage that. That’s an example of projecting the success that you want to have. I was literally ready to walk away, because I didn’t wanna, if I did 100 shitty jobs at 50 dollars to get to a 5,000 dollar rate, then I could just do one 5,000 dollar rate and then I would be thought of as that particular person from then on. This was more than a decade ago, so you start to do the thinking about how that has played out for my particular career. Then, where I’ve totally bombed, there’s not enough time in the show today to discuss all the times that I’ve bombed, but there’ve been plenty. The bombing usually is being unprepared, or not being able to believe
the message that you’re giving that you’re a good match. You look at the bank account, it’s gettin’ a little low. “Yeah, I’d love to shoot dog food. “That sounds awesome. “I’m a good dog food photographer.” You can just sort of smell it in the air, that you’re not good. – I did one where I totally bombed. I still remember it. I was doing some consulting work. It was 20 dollars an
hour, I was in college, which was a lot of money to me back then. I was like, “You know what? “I’ve been here for eight months, “I should get a raise.” So I go in to the meeting
and the guy’s like, “Okay, what do you want?” I was like, “Well, you know I’ve been here “quite a bit and I really
understand the process. “I’d like to discuss a raise.” And he goes, “Why should
we give you a raise?” And I go, “Well, I’ve
been here a long time “and I understand the proc,” I literally just repeated
what I had just said. – I’ve been doing exactly
what I should have, for the rate that-
– Exactly, for eight months, so shouldn’t you pay me more, because I’ve been here a long time. And the guy just went, “No.” I had never planned out or scenario plan what to say if he said no. There are these fall backs you can do if someone says no, and so he just basically, politely sent me out of his office. At first, I was angry at him. And then, it took me
about a day to calm down, and I realized it was totally my fault. I gave him no reason to give me a raise. I gave him nothing compelling. And I didn’t talk about
him, I talked about me. That was the last time I ever did that. – And now what does it sound like? When Ramit wants a raise? – Totally different. So I go in and I say, you know, first of all, it’s like
a multi-month process. So I’ll go in there, and I’ll say, and this what I tell my students to do, they often get 70% raises. That’s fucking high. That’s crazy.
– That’s insane, don’t get any ideas.
(both laughing) – So they’ll go in and they’ll say, “You know, first of all Mike,” let’s say their boss’ name is Mike. “Mike, listen, for the last six months “I’ve been doing these three things “and we sat down and
discussed this six months ago. “I’ve done this, I’ve
knocked it off the plate. “This, I’ve knocked it out of the park. “This one I’m still working on, “so I’d like your guidance. “I’d also like a little help. “I really wanna be an
extraordinary performer, “so can you give me some guidance “on what you’d like me to do “in order to do that
three months from now? “At that time, I’d like to come back. “I’d also like to discuss
some compensation adjustments, “but first, I just wanna focus “on being an extraordinary performer.” Notice a couple things. One, I’m talking about what
I’ve already done well. So I’m walking in there with a positive- – I did this, this, and this.
– Attitude. So they’re like, “I love this.” Two, I’m asking them for advice. Everyone loves to give advice. I’m not asking them for money. – That’s the only reason I have this show. (Ramit laughing) – And then, I’m saying, “What should I do going forward, “not to make more money, but to be “an extraordinary performer.” Then, when I walk into the
door to discuss salary, which is two, three months later, 80% of the work’s done. I’m like, “We discussed this. “We discussed being a top performer. “Here’s what I’ve done. “Here’s what I find as the comps “on salary.com or payscale.com. “I’d like to discuss a
compensation adjustment.” Not, “I want you to give me more money,” because it feels like I’m
taking it out of your pocket. “I’d like to discuss an adjustment.” Here’s the phrase you use. “I’d like to discuss a number
that’s fair for both of us.” Who can argue with that? It’s fair.
– Right, it’s hard to argue. – Exactly. That’s your process, in general, for how you were talking
about getting a raise. – My brain’s starting to be scrambled. There’s a lot of stuff. This is just rapid fire stuff comin’ out of the pipe that hopefully is gonna be incredibly
useful for you folks at home. To the folks here in the
live studio audience, I’m gonna go to the question
and answer now, here as well. Raise your hand if you’ve
got a question for Ramit, or me, of course, because it’s time for you guys to answer it. I’m gonna stick my head down here and pull out the next one. Right up front, I saw you
raise your hand earlier, now you’ve got it raised a little higher. Drop the knowledge,
what do we need to know? Right here in front Norton. – So, my head’s kind
of swimming right now, and I understand the importance of saying what you’re worth, or just putting out that number. What I’m struggling with is figuring out what number
should that be for me, and how can I feel
comfortable and confident with that number, and
not kind of squeamish. So I guess, this is more on
the emotional side of things. – This is, I think that I’m probably gonna make a bunch of really
categorical mistakes with, I wanna answer this because
this is how I’ve approached it, and I think it’s been somewhat successful, but I’m surely breaking
some classic rules. You’re gonna tell me
what rules I’ve broken and how to do better. The way that I approach this, and the way I have for my whole career, is what I need to find out is how much money is on the
other end of the pipeline, not necessarily what my rate is. Now, there’s all kinds
of coaching and stuff, the American Society of Media
Photographers, the ASMP, will teach you. And you should know that number, what it takes to make
a profitable business, because you should not be doing business for less than profitable. Right, because then at
the end of the year, you’re gonna be screwed. So, you need to know what that number is, but don’t necessarily
just plug in the number and have that be what your
day rate or your whatever is. I like to approach it, and the people like my
agents and my managers, there’s an understanding
of what’s in the budget. When you get to a place
where you have proven that you’ve done, that you’ve
pulled the briefcase out, you know that you’re right the match, or they said, “We’ve been
watching you for six months. “We know that you’re the perfect
person for this campaign.” What people on my staff and my team do is they ask, “What’s the budget?” I think that, again, I have priced myself as a premium product and I
hope that the world knows that. Sometimes, there’s not the money. Just cutting through
the bullshit and saying, “I’m happy to estimate this. “I need to understand, in round terms, “what the budget is to make
sure we’re a good match,” because you can tell sort of
how the contact comes to you. If it came to you off a reader
board at the coffee shop, you kind of know their budget versus if it came in through your agent. Again, this is a skill
that is hard to impart in just a single question, but understanding and
finding a good rhetoric to discover the budget. Usually when the budget comes back, I would say, it’s not always insufficient, but you can say, “Okay, um.” I always reserve the right to
go away and think about it. Get a piece of information,
and go think about it. Find out what it is, how you can frame whether or not this works for you. Then we go back and say, “You know, we did the
math, I did the math. “My producer crunched an estimate. “There’s just not enough money “for the creative fees and the usage “in this particular budget.” I don’t just end there, I say, “Here are three ways we can change that. “One, we can shoot for less days, “because that means less production fees, “then the usage is more in
line with what tradition is. “Two, we can reduce the deliverable, “so there’s less final images.” Without going into the details, I will provide three ways that we can actually work together, unless there’s not enough money. Then I don’t say, “Aw, shit,
I’ll just do it for that.” Any time you’re negotiating, don’t take deliverables off
the table for the same money, or don’t leave deliverables on
the table for the same money. If it’s like, okay, it
should be 20,000 dollars. It’s 10,000 dollars, okay,
I’ll do the same work. I won’t do the post-production, or I’ll only shoot for one
day instead of two days. You have to take things off because the first number that you said has a value associated with it. If you all of the sudden just say, “Oh, okay, I’ll do it,” then you realize that that value, the number that you threw out there, was bullshit and bullshit doesn’t sell. How am I blowing this? – No, it’s awesome. I think the taking things off the table, just serves to make you more authentic, cause if you said 20k and then all of the sudden you’re
like, “Okay, 10k,” then it’s clear you
were bullshitting them. If you say, “Look I just can’t do it, “but I can give you xyz,” you’re also solving their problems. I think, one of the things that I advise my photography students to do early on, when they’re
just starting to get clients, is that in general, I don’t
really care about the money for the first three. It’s even okay, I know
this is kind of like, it’s unusual to hear
in the creative world, I don’t even care if they’re dramatically underpricing themselves for
the first three clients. All I care about it is that
they can get three clients, cause getting someone to pay 20 bucks an hour or 50 bucks
an hour or 1000 dollars, a small fee, is great for confidence. That’s really important. Second, I try to use each of these clients in a strategic way. We were talking about how
testimonials are strategic. Remember when you do your research, and you find out these phrases that people want, like “I want
my son to get into Harvard.” Well guess what happens? When you do an amazing project for your first three clients, you say, “Hey listen, if
I do an extraordinary job, “will you agree to give
me a written testimonial?” And they’re gonna be like, “Of course!” Then, you either write the testimonial for them and ask them if
they’re comfortable with it. They can change it. Or, you say, “Would you
be willing to write it, “and I’m hoping you can cover “how I helped your son get into Harvard.” Whatever it is. They write that, and in every subsequent
interview, pitch you do, you have those testimonials. That’s worth way more than the money you would have gotten right there. I always want to try to think about the long term game, and those first three clients, they’re not gonna pay
you that much anyway, but they can be worth way more to you in other ways besides money. That’s how I think about it. – Boom, nailed it. That, I think, was a super bad ass answer. One of the things we also
promised to talk about, which we’re gettin’ down, we’re inside of 10 minutes now, so I’m gonna need to start movin’ us toward the finish line here. So, I’m gonna be taking a
couple of your pictures. I will be shootin’ with the 600se and the new Polaroid Z340 after the show. Between now and then,
what I need to get to is working for free. – Yeah, man. – It is a hot topic in our line of work, because people always
talk about undercutting and being bullshit and
bringing the industry down, and I have worked for free
on a handful of occasions that I thought were, usually
where there’s a beneficiary, that it’s a non-profit. There’s a lot of reasons, and you wanted to talk about that, so open it up, baby. – I don’t know if we actually
agree or not on this, cause we didn’t cover it together, but I’ll just share what I think. I worked for free a lot. It helped me get my career to a place I could not have gotten it to otherwise. Now, any time you talk
about free or spec work, for some reason there’s this brigade of anti-free people who come out, and they just post 6,0000 comments, “Free is ruining the industry.” I’m like, “You guys, you can say that, “but you don’t get to
determine the market. “The market does.” Here’s how I look at it. I know a lot of us have been burned by working for free, because we go on Craigslist, and there’s some company that’s like, “Work for us for free, “and if you do a good job, “we’ll give you a million dollars later.” Clearly, this is bullshit. However, free can be strategic. I work for free, for example, obviously if it’s a good cause,
I’ll give a speech for free or something like that,
but free can be strategic. If you find someone that you trust, that you know is going
to give you something. When you’re working for free, you’re always gonna get something. It could be a portfolio piece. It could be a testimonial, which is very important for you. It could be a referral
to three other people. So, I always go in and I say, “Look,” and this is where you teach them to revere you. I don’t go in and I’m like, “I’ll do it for free, fuck it.” No, I say, “Look, my normal rate is- – Can’t we get an applause? That’s just beautiful right there. (audience clapping) You don’t do that, you don’t do that. – So I would go in for,
let’s say a consulting thing. I would say, “Look, my normal
rate is 2,000 dollars an hour, “and normally I charge that
and I don’t do discounts. “But you know what, I reall,” actually let me pick a different number. “My normal consulting rate
is 50 dollars an hour, “and I don’t do discounts, “but I really like your project. “I really think it has a lot of potential. “I’m willing to work for you for free, “but we have to agree on a couple things. “One, if I do an extraordinary job, “then at the end of 30 days, “we’ll discuss going
back to my normal rate. “Two, if I also do an extraordinary job, “you agree to refer me to
three people that you know.” What does this do? First of all, it establishes your value. This is how much I normally charge. I’m willing to do it for free, but only if you agree to xyz. Two, you’re only agreeing to these things if I do an amazing job. That’s one thing. The second thing is
remember that free can be, not just about getting a testimonial, it can about building the
things that you need right now. A lot of my photography students, they don’t have a portfolio, they don’t have any testimonials. They use free strategically. The worst thing to do is
just to do it for free, with no end game and praying
that they’ll pay you later. Not gonna happen.
– Never do that. – Not gonna happen.
– That’s horrible. Also, thinking that you’re gonna jump from that position to
some super high position, like that million dollar
example you gave me. That’s just head in the sand living. That’s just horrible. I believe very much about saying, “I’m gonna do this because it benefits “this particular thing.” If you can find a third party beneficiary that’s a non-profit and
you can do great work. Another thing that you can talk about is creative freedom.
– Yeah, nice. – I can do this project, but you’re hiring me without
paying me for my vision. Not to micromanage me. So, that what you get out of this thing, is an amazing piece that
looks like you want it to. That is a big thing, because as soon as you
start doing this for money, you really end up compromising a lot, and that’s just the nature of work, right. There’s a lot of people involved. There’s a lot of money involved. There’s a lot of opinions. It just gets sort of
chopped down a little bit. The idea that I just walk on set and everybody’s like, “Whatever
Chase says is perfect.” It’s not happenin’
– That’s not how it works? – That’s not how it works.
– Aw, shit. – Nah, sorry. We’re winding down, I’ll
take a couple questions. We are gonna have a little
extended session here for the in-studio audience, but I want to give away two of your books and a signed Polaroid. I’ve been shootin’ Polaroids here, as you know, throughout
the course of the day. – Look at that, wow.
– Yeah, good lookin’. You look a lot better. I look like Casper the ghost, and you look like you just got back from a sweet Tahitian vacation. – There we go. – I wanna give away, book
winners @Feuza, F-E-U-Z-A, “You don’t want to be the technician. “You want to be the vision.” That’s beautiful, you get
a signed book from Ramit. Email [email protected] to give us your information
so we can send that. Also, Juan Carlos H., “When you can hit on what they
want, hope for, and dream, “price is a mere triviality.” Love that one, that’s another
signed book from Ramit, the I Will Teach You to be Rich book. And the winner of the signed
photo is Drango Photo, “Teach them to review,” sorry (laughing), “Teach them to revere what you’ve done.” – Awesome.
– All amazing quotes. Thank you folks at home, for tweeting out all the great information that I’m pulling out of Ramit here. The question and answer has been great. I’m, again, very thankful to the folks that have been supporting us, to Polaroid, to B & H, to all of you folks out there who have been spreading the good love for Chase Jarvis Live. This is our closing episode
for the 2011 season. When you see what’s in store for 2012, you’re gonna pull your
hair out with joy, I hope. I can’t thank you enough, for what you’ve done. For flying here all the way from New York, to sit here for 90 minutes, and answer the world’s questions. It’s been a huge treat. What am I forgetting team? I know I’m forgetting something. Do we have time, how much time, we have three minutes? Is that time for more one more question? Nah, let’s shut her down. We’ll take questions from these guys. – Beautiful.
– Thank you so much, it’s been a huge pleasure. Internet, I love you.
– Thank you guys. – I love you, I’m so grateful. He’s @Ramit, a at that
little a sign, R-A-M-I-T. Mr. Sethi, thank you so much.
– My pleasure. – I’m @chasejarvis and
gosh, that’s all there is. Again, huge thanks to Polaroid and B & H for supportin’ what we’re doin’. Mad respect, the new Polaroid up here. I got the 600, I’m gonna be shootin’ your portrait in a second. – Awesome. Thank you guys.
– Thank you so much. Round of applause, if we
can, for this man right here. (audience clapping) – Thank you so much. (audience clapping) Thanks buddy.
– That was awesome. – Thank you so much. (jazzy hip hop music)

100 thoughts on “Ramit Sethi | Chase Jarvis LIVE | ChaseJarvis

  • Question for Chase: So at the end of the video Ramit was talking about working for free, and when and when not to do that. During that I was just wondering if he came onto your show for free or if you hired him to come on?

  • Woow, this show totally blew my mind. Superduper amazing, thanks so much Ramit and Chase for putting this together! This is so incredibly helpful!

  • This CJLive has been one of my favorite ones you have been done so far. I have made a lot of the mistakes that you guys were discussing here, but has also re-assured me that I am making some right choices as well.

    I laughed, I scorned, I took notes, I agreed/disagreed, I made funny faces…Your sessions are one of a very few informative for creatives that make me do this every time I watch.

    I look forward to a new live every time. You and your friends are amazing Chase.

  • Look, compressor issues happen to everybody. For the few people that were not too phased by the sound quality, the video does an extraordinary job, but I am here to figure out how to meet Chase and Ramit… soon enough. 😉

    Thank you for sharing this video Chase, very powerful and important.

  • Great content, thanks for the tips. The content is so powerful,but IMO the profanity detracts from the quality of your instruction.Please use less next time, for those of us who are not comfortable with such language.Much appreciated.

  • Ramit is easily one of the most charismatic men on earth. such an inspiration. thank you Ramit and of course Chase as well!

  • Chase, I really hoped this last 2 days instead of 90 minutes. It was soooooooooooo helpful. THANKS from a Jr architect in Vancouver 🙂

  • Brilliant interview! Jam packed w/ valuable knowledge. Love Ramit's work. Zcan't wait to checkout more of Chase Jarvis' LIVE shows.

  • Hey Chase, thanks for the great interview. Wondering if you have a link to that study about negotiation you mention at around the 0:39 mark? I'd love to read more about that. Thanks!

  • When I saw his website first I thought aye right yet another scam. This video has turned me around. What an awesome dude! Thanks for sharing this with the world.

  • I would like to air this on my own radio show called inspiring people radio…the show supports artists, musicians, inventors and thinkers of all form, can I have your permission to do this? 🙂 Monica.

  • Thank you very much for uploading this interview. It is pretty informative, with a lot of good proposals! 🙂

  • Man. You could have cut 45 minutes off of this thing. It's called "editing". Try it. You could have gotten rid of about 80% of the "hosts" extemporaneous jibba jabba. This is just really, really bad interviewing.

  • Why do you need a compressor for moderation…
    That's like using a ND filter just in case you might get an unexpected peak sunlight phase…. 🙂

  • I'm a bit funny when it comes to audio… luckily someone gave me the point when the audio was sorted out. 5:53. Jarvis thank you for doing this interview. I've taken a fair bit on board. I was quite surprised how I naturally conduct interviews with clients where I take the lead in find out what they want and then showing them what I can do.

  • Anyone tried the Monezilax System (do a search on google)? I've heard several unbelivable things about it and my work buddy earn crazy amounts of money with it.

  • Thank you Chase. You are doing fantastic work with this Live shows. This one is best… Always interesting episodes

  • yeah. alright. most of the people are losing their money in penny stocks without much guidance. its not a joke, One of my friend making tons of money from penny stocks with professional easy guidance. have a try now here ==> bit.ly/1481J99?=bcdzey

  • This is amazing advice, and I want to thank you for posting it for all to enjoy freely. I have a question in line with this interview that hopefully you can answer: As a composer, I put my music out there again and again, and no one seems to want to listen or care. This gets very disconcerting for me, and it's been a primary reason why I've stopped working as much on it. How do I find a market even interested in my music so I can eventually profit from it?

  • Yes, maybe it is. But I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't care for vulgarity in a business presentation.

  • Some missed opportunity here because Chase has a hard time letting Ramit answer the questions. Interviewing can be tough.

  • how to ask for a raise, how to get clients, how to establish huge salaries, provide value to the costumer.
    Great stuff, too bad I will never be looking for a job lol 🙂 Great for freelancers as well

  • 03:40 – Ramit background and general outline
    06:20 – Understanding the other person
    10:10 – Ramit Book “IWTYTBR”
    11:30 – Artist barriers – Being a “sellout” 
    12:30 – Keep improving the craft barrier
    13:50 – Story on understanding the client vs improving skills and Pay certainty technique 
    16:20 – Photographers clients wants and fears
    18:00 – Mistake 1 – Expecting the other person to recognize your brilliance.
    Instead explain what went into the work and why it’s different
    20:00 – Mistake 2 – Try to appeal to everyone.
    21:00 – Making price irrelevant
    24:00 – Steps to understand the clients and straight jacket technique 
    28:00 – Disqualify yourself and not tricking the client
    33:20 – Briefcase technique – showing and suggesting prepared ideas for the client benefit
    38:40 – Prepare questions, clients should be sure you understand him and his needs
    42:40 – How to reach for clients
    46:00 – How to transition from 9 to 5 job
    51:00 – Home location is a small market
    55:10 – How to turn web views to sells
    58:00 – Start an email list
    59:00 – Market yourself, be visionary not the commodity
    1:03:00 – Competence triggers
    1:07:30 – Oneites, not focusing on only one gig
    1:09:00 – First gig story and its lesson
    1:13:50 – How to get a raise
    1:16:10 – How much do I worth?
    1:22:20 – Working for free


  • The URL iwillteachyoutoberich.com/chase for the email script to initiate coffee meetings from prospects is not there!

    Does anyone know where it is? Thanks! @Chase Jarvis 

  • Very interesting.. But I felt like Chase didn't really let Ramit shine on this one, he spoke way too much.. Still great interview

  • This is GOLD!! Quality information. Quality interview. You can only grow when you apply this valuable knowledge. Love these two people. 

  • Yea, Chase, you kinda took over the majority of this conversation, when Ramit was getting ready to share some vital points, you interrupted him. Still a great interview, still a big fan of both.

  • Great talk, but Chase was very disrespectful interrupting Ramit so often. I like Chase but that's not how you treat your guest

  • You have done a great service to creatives by running this series, Chase. But seriously, you do need to let the interviewees complete their sentences.

  • WONDERFUL information… shame the audio is almost impossible to listen to without bleeding from the earholes.. 😉 Ride that level slider! peeking at -12 db should keep everyone happier. I know, live is hard.. 

  • I watched the first half and made the below points, 

    # All people someday wants to quit their job, It's their secret desire

    # 80% of negotiation is decided before even you step into the room

    # Identify where is pay-certainty, who are our actual customers

    # Don't invest too much in enhancing skills start making money and grow the skills as time goes by

    # While advertising, instead of just shouting what you offer, try to know their sentiment and why they want that product and pitch it accordingly.

    # Don't expect other person to realize your brilliance without explaining it

    # Let your client realize the effort behind the portfolio and the energy spent before the appointment

    # Don't do things better, Try doing differently

    # When you are able to nearly hit what they want, price becomes trivial

    # Focus on the customers need by proper research

    # StraightJacket method : Close your eyes and visualize yourself as customer and list down what they want and what they do not want (Ex wedding bride)

    # Go out and offer free coffee to dummy customers and know what they wanted and what they received what problem they faced. 

    # Two bullet points, Ability to pay & willingness to pay

    # While negotiating offer a 30, 60 & 90 day plan of action. This shows your sincerity and the amount of homework you have done. Could be a deal closer actually.

    # Ask great questions and allow the prospect to talk more, Most of the successful negotiations are the one's that client spoke most of the time. 

    # Try to get 3 paying customers in first 8 weeks

    # Keep a forwardable email handy and leave it to referrals

    # At regular interval contribute on free content on columns and slowly become the goto person.

  • You'd think with all this nice gear it'd be possible to get a mic that didn't clip out with just normal talking…Sorry not trying to troll – just an observation that didn't make my ears happy.

  • I loved this interview.  Chase – I'd love to see you interview more women.  Let's change the status of women in the media  – your media company as well.  Thanks!

  • At 1:09:06, Chase describes when he pitched his first photography gig, and he was pissed that the guy didn't recoil at the price. When he DIDN'T recoil. That's the mindset I need.

  • 10:21 when he says he almost committed suicide 25 times… doesn't really help me in getting along with the guy when he so passively speaks of something that in all seriousness is a very serious thing to just fucking skim over. Nothing about him or the way he talks even partially reads that he's actually been to a place like that in his mind.

  • So much valuable content! Saw it again after Ramit's newsletter. BOOM, the Briefcase Technique version 2.0. Thanks Chase and Ramit.

  • did they kill the page that is referring to with all this free material? I went to the site/chase and it is just a poor audio version of this without all the other goods he mentioned in the above video. Help?!

  • I checked out Ramits book on Audible thinking it was going to be a book like the advice he gave in this interview.. long story short, I didn't buy the book as it was in regards to finance. Not that the book doesn't have value but he's pitching a different theme than the one he gives in this interview. If someone knows of a book that highlights this interview, I'd love to check it out!

  • I just want to say this is one of the most brilliant videos I've ever seen on youtube. The entire concept of appealing to aspiring Entrepreneurs with no cost or a $0.99 purchase is ironic (in a good way!) because in order to teach how to lure clients and customers in for traffic, they literally use every part of the method this piece gives. They use the method to teach the method, so it's very simple and easy to understand. As an aspiring filmmaker, I learned more from Ramit's book "Your Move: The Underdog's Guide to Building Your Business" than i did in the YEARS I spent in film school. The execution was perfect, and this video plus his book completely set up potential long term relationships. When you do something for free for a client that educates and completely gets them hooked wanting more, it starts a process of years and years of development until they get to the stage that they need official consultations. He tailors every single idea to the client he is teaching (in this case, it's youtube viewers) and you can't really challenge anything he teaches because he gives objective facts that reveal just the amount of information at just the right time to teach you to do the same thing. If internet consumers talk poorly or argue with Ramit or Chase, it is completely unjustifiable because A) One person's experience isn't going to match another person's experience, and B) Their argument is simply subjective and is easily irrelevant because of the sources and relationships he has had. Or in other words, because of Ramit, he has helped people gain MILLIONS of dollars so the subjective opinion is biased and does not apply. I seriously look forward to reading more emails and books that go on sale in the future!

  • Wish Ramit would teach Chase How Not To Interrupt! Chase just droned on answering questions that were directed at Ramit.

  • You lost me when you talked about brides getting married soon in the next 3 months and then went to bride that recently got married. I guess you're talking about learning from past clients of other competitors that solved their client's problem solved. Not potential clients that haven't solved their problem yet.

  • Dude you have no idea how much I've been CRAVING for a 'no-bullshit' person tell me something I didn't know and it actually turned out as good as it sounded. Thanks!

  • This is good for selling a service, but how about artwork? Dealing with art galleries is not really like being a photographer. What would the advice be here?

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