Reconciliation, Conflict Resolution, Social Entrepreneurship and Coaching Skills with Tony Macaulay



today we're gonna talk about leadership storytelling conflict resolution so welcome to prophecy TV and today I'm joined by Tony McCauley so from McCauley associates thank you very much for coming in and talking to us today hi Karen it's good to be here brilliant she would might tell us a little bit about yourself or what your you do in your company well I do I suppose that there would really be three strands of what I do the first is my company's called McAuley associates and I've run that company for about 20 years now and that is focused on social entrepreneurship and conflict resolution and you know working with NGOs voluntary community sector organisations on their strategy on the research on their development evaluation programs things like that so I've worked in that failed really all my life you know I grew up in Belfast in the 1970s heard of the troubles here and really during that time I've had a big impact on me and ultimately I got involved in youth work and community development and peace building and so I ended up really spending 25 years and that's an type of work working all over Northern Ireland and then eventually starting to work in other parts of the world in terms of post-conflict society so I then started to work in places like Sri Lanka and El Salvador and then ultimately I did I did quite a lot of work in the former Yugoslavia in the Balkans after the wars there in the 1990s in terms of you know supporting youth workers in that part of the world in group work skills and conflict resolution so that's sort of kind of being the me and strand of my work from from most of my life but down about ten years ago I went and did a creative writing class and to my delight and surprise I've ended up becoming a best-selling author which is something I never planned to do and never expected to do but I have to say it's been an amazing journey and doing that sort of doing that I suppose writing is my passion I love writing when I'm when I'm writing the time passes like I don't I don't even know what time it is so written a series of memoirs about my teenage years and early adulthood growing up in Belfast and my early experiences of working across the peace lines and in Northern Ireland in the 1980s and and that's been it that's been amazing in that you don't know when you write a book who's going to read it and where they're going to read it and I never expected my book to be my books to be published internationally or and you know I was delighted when they were in the main bookshop in Belfast but then a few years later I they were in the main bookshop in 5th Avenue in New York and that was quite quite an experience something I never really expected so yeah so so writings my passion my first book paperboy as actually last year was made into a musical so it was adapted for the stage and made into musical with music by jig special is kind of platinum-selling Belfast singer/songwriter and it did really well and it's coming back to the Larry Theatre in Belfast again and 2019 and there's talk of a tour in the yes and things like that so so that part of my that kind of unexpected part of my career just emerged ten years ago when I went dead a wee creative writing class and then the other strand of my work is which is developed again in the last 10 years is the work that I do in the private sector so for most of my life I worked in the voluntary community sector and in that whole area of community development youth work and conflict resolution and and interestingly one of my colleagues from years ago started a company in Belfast called toured and toured is a company that works and all all different sectors across the world and executive coaching team coaching and leadership development and I've worked as an associate with toured for the past ten years and so and what we've done many of us who work with toured have come from a similar background to me and we take our experience at that's had a kind of grassroots community development to conflict resolution we bring that to senior executives and we work with senior executive teams that X goes and you know when you've done community-based Catholic resolution you're not really intimidated by anyone in the boardroom because you've your facility in a very tough dialogue with people who were literally killing one another so to be in you know to bring that experience into the private sector and to work with senior executives and global companies has been something again that I never expected to do but something that I have to say I'm really enjoying I love doing that I love working with senior teams I love working with brilliant people you're very committed to what they are doing and you know we're brilliant in their own failed but often people like that like all of us need a bit of support bit of confidential coaching bit of support in the background maybe sometimes about where they're going next in their career or in their life or maybe just you know maybe issues that they struggle with a bit sometimes dealing with difficult people or or maybe making a tough decision so part of you know a lot of the coaching that I do is senior leaders that are on those sort of issues so what what a threat of experience so we'd love to talk about that so have you seen in the NGO sector a big change in your 20 years that you've worked in that sector and these are a difference between what what happened here in Northern Ireland what he did here no no no other countries or are we all human and we deal with things the same way well in terms of the the NGO sector has become it has become more professional in my in my time working in it I remember when I started doing an MBA maybe 15 years ago and there wasn't there was no sort of specific voluntary sector unit or margin you could do but now there are there are a number of those that you can do and and so the varnish akka has become more professional over that period of time it continues to be a struggle resources you know what when the economy's tight and they're there their cuts and challenges in the economy that has an impact the NGO sector so that's a constant challenge but there's also been a lot of innovation as well and the voluntary sector particular around social entrepreneurship so it's not simply just about asking for donations and doing fundraising it's about maybe running a social business you know where you reinvest the profits back into the services of the charity so I've seen that I've seen that development over the years and it's interesting for me and I that you know at this stage of my life my career I'm understood and you know making a contribution giving back and so I do as a volunteer coach some leaders in East Africa so I'm currently coaching a young leader and who runs a social entrepreneur project and one of the biggest slums in Kampala so I'm coach M vice guy you know regularly and I'm supporting that that project where there it's basically local young people supporting other local young people in that community and so I've been I've been involved there now for the past year just and I'll be going back to Kampala later this year and this is where I love to bring things together so I'm coaching the leaders of the project I'm kind of I actually actually got them to do my website because they they're web designers but I'm also going to record an audio book of my second book Brad boy in next year and I was looking around you know where I would record the the audio book and I recorded the first order you put paper boy in Belfast and I decided I would record it in Kampala with this this could be young people because that's one of the things they do they have a lots to do and they do that so I love you know when I can combine things like that so that's so that's the the one project the other project that I'm involved in and in East Africa is in Rwanda and and this is something that's really close to my heart so you know I really believe that reconciliation is a very important part of any country or community that's been through a period of conflict like you know Northern Ireland where I've grown up and and Rwanda has a remarkable story to tell so in 1994 there was the genocide it was a million people were killed in 100 days it was one of the worst genocides the world has ever seen and I was there a few months ago and I got to see I suppose I got to see the worst of what humanity can do but I also got to see the best and the project I'm involved with in Rwanda is to establish a basically an international reconciliation center which shares the stories of reconciliation and forgiveness in Rwanda with the rest of the world because what has happened there is remarkable so you have various initiatives where perpetrators and survivors of the genocide I've actually been reconciled to one another and you know this is people who have the you know how formerly were neighbors and friends during the genocide then you know maybe the perpetrator killed a woman's husband and I the widow and the perpetrator they know they've got to some stage of reconciliation she has for he has asked for forgiveness she has forgiven him and there and I actually you know working together and so a few months ago I was in some of the villages in the beautiful hills of Rwanda and III saw that a group of about 40 people and various pairs got up and shared their stories of how they had done terrible you know someone have done something terrible to this person this person that they'd gone to prison for many years when they've been released they weren't letting in the local community they saw them every day and they went through these forgiveness and rent to leash and workshops and eventually they had to they met then they had a dialogue with each other and they found peace with each other in spite of the horrific things that one of them had done and one of them had suffered so I think that's remarkable but to me it's it's the most amazing things I've ever heard and I'm interested in stories you know as a writer I believe in stories in the power of stories I I want the stories that I heard and the villages of Rwanda to be heard by more people around the world and part of this the division of this reconciliation Center in Rwanda is that it would record those stories and that be a repository for those stories and in years to come you know when there are other conflicts in the world that people will be able to look and say well what did they do in Rwanda after such a horrific time and I think it's also a challenge for me when my country were at you know in Northern Ireland because we've had peace for many years and we're you know they know Northern Ireland's transformed from when I was growing up but we haven't had the reconciliation in the same deep way that I've seen people reconciling and Yolanda so I'm really understood in sharing the stories of Rwanda in my country as well and actually growing up and seen the problems and what was happening go under on TV and reading about it again actually see the horrendous things that have lit there and you might justice Lobby as well doing things of it's very strange you know living here and no one owned I've actually seen some of the troubles myself and then seen it other countries gone through their own problems and our perception of that but actually again I guess we all share that the same problems we go there's a conflict and we need to go through resolution and come out the other end or else we'll never be read well that's the interesting thing you know I always I always feel when I'm in another country it's really important to be careful not to impose you know my solution or what what worked in my country and their country and I think that's important however human beings what I've discovered is human beings are the same everywhere we have the same emotions we feel the same way and and that's what I discover both when people are you know at each other's throats and then when people are getting through conflict and trying to come to terms with it and wanting to reconcile human behavior human beings and see the world over and you know at the start of that of that meeting in Rwanda in our village the the guy he was organizing the meeting stood up and he said do you know what drives this it's just he said it's just love and and I thought well you know that the most bond was basic human emotions as love and and they're they there in that context after all horrible horrific things that had happened there that was what was driving them to try to create a better future in their village Teresa we look forward to you documented them and publishing them and in their in the future use yeah well I one of the others of things when I was in Rwanda I met a young screenwriter and and I've no I'm not keeping in touch with him and we're collaborating on writing a story and I'll write a novel version he's gonna ruin write the screen version of a really powerful story of reconciliation from Rwanda so I've been inspired you know by my visit there to to write more about those stories incredible and you've actually then taken your skills that you've developed in your 20 years and NGO sector into commercial and the business doesn't happen business leaders and you find that's been an easy transition is if the people work as you say people are people and we seem to think conflict no matter what happens yeah so there really isn't much difference between you know facilitating you know some conflict resolution some difficult conversations that are in a kind of community context than in a corporate context because again the behaviors are the same and how people react when there's tension and difference in conflict is the same whether it's you know whether it's a family conflict a you know a community conflict or a conflict within an organization the behaviors are the same and the kind of approaches and techniques for conflict resolution you know can be applied in all of those all of those contexts and I suppose I find they the transition into that world easier than expected I had assumed that was more about me I had assumed that perhaps there wouldn't you know but because the the NGO sector has fewer resources and in some way that you know that that wouldn't be regarded as serious or credible in some way but what I find is the opposite I find that very often you know and then some of the work that I do with toward very often we are we're chosen to do that work because we have that sort of background and that kind of life experience rather than you know maybe a more traditional kind of consultancy type company so and yeah so what's been fascinating is people are really interested in that that experience and that those stories and that work and they find they can really add to it and it can be relevant to what's going on for them and and their leadership and in the business and we do a lot of work around supporting companies who here involved in a lot of mergers and acquisitions and that maybe they've maybe bought a huge company which has a different culture from the acquiring company and they're very interested in the process of how do you support the people in the acquired company to adopt and own the culture of the of the the main company not and so we would do a lot of work around personal values and how my values relate to the culture of the organization what is the culture and I feel aligned or misaligned with the culture of the organization and a lot of that work you know it comes from that same sort of writ of the work that I've done in the past around conflict resolution and Community Development were they're very kind of values led types of initiatives I'm thinking that you know it's a very interesting time exciting time for any business you know motors but also is probably at the interesting if the cultures don't fit and there is conflict because that's probably where they can see that bit of a clash saying yes even even here I know we merge their accountants I'm sure even you know I can just imagine just hotel and that you know what's a better paint on the tickets Ryan merge two bodies that have you know two different operations and do it in a way that the icon is as productive as it should be yeah I mean I think really really you know smart companies get that but the commune oh that you know the culture is really important and the culture can make or break whether a merger or an acquisition is successful or not so I think when companies understand that and invest in that I think it makes a big difference to whether that you know a merger and acquisitions got to be successful yeah so I think that's really really important so a lot of prevention and I'm trained to foresee problems and negate them I guess as opposed to actually having a deal with problems that have happened or do you find that there is there is conflicts in companies and you need to step in and and actually how people resolve problems as well it's a real mixture you know very often we work with senior teams and they're really good but they want they want to be even better you know they want to move from good to great you know you know they're ambitious they that you know they want to get to the next level other times we work with teams that are very new and they just they're not really functional as a team they're not really any problems or tensions they just don't really have a Billy gelled or maybe there's been a restructure another kind of new to each other and sometimes we do work with teams where there are you know there's a bit of history you know under there issues that need to be addressed and need to you know we simply provide a space for the elephant' can come into the room and people can have a better difficult conversation with each other try to work things out as well listen I think please coming up in through something like nothing there's a senior team of process of improvement and exactly as you see it was a lot of it was actually very emotional I recall because a lot of things discussed I put it the the the atmosphere and the team after that was it was incredible but what happened the transformation in our our I put in our relationship with each of our colleagues it was it was transformational so I can understand their how that is so important so in toward then you them you actually do this work through towards and do you use different types of processes or models or what what what as a different systems processes for different cases and business yeah what would be very a spoke you know so we would say we don't we wouldn't toward wouldn't offer you know just a you know a set program it's always we always do diagnostic work and we would do interviews and we would talk to leaders to see what they need in terms of team development their leadership development and then we design something specifically for them in terms of the executive coaching you know the one-to-one coaching with drawing different coaching models we wouldn't use just one we just drawn different models and what's ever most relevant you know for that particular person but over the years we actually have developed a team coaching model and toward which you know which we which we think is you know effective and we talk about you know four key elements of team coaching for a senior leadership team the first is breathing space so just you know very often they're so busy they've gone a hundred miles an hour there's constant chains there's so much going on just to take the time to you know to come together maybe they're more based in different parts of the world or different parts of the country just to take the time to come together just for two days and have some space to breathe and sort of get out of the weeds and have a bit of you know big picture thinking and so that that's a rebreathing space as the first the second is what we call relational flow because the relationships can make or break a team you know if there's tensions and competition unhealthy competition going on if there's undermining behavior going on other team if they're things that need to be said that aren't being said that's a huge waste of energy that reduces the team's effectiveness so really really a tional flow is really important again sometimes it's you know one team coaching it's simply just people getting to know each other or getting to know how high-tech you know getting you some psychometrics at times to sort of underpin that you know just to help people understand different personalities different styles all of that but that's the relational flow the third part is what we would call purposeful clarity so every team needs to be clear what their purpose is and so one of the one of the first things we ask when we talk to team members on a senior leadership team is are you clear on your purpose or to what extent are you clear on your purpose of the team and if they're not clear we need to work with them on getting that clarity and then fourth the fourth area is commitment because we can we can have fantastic team coaching sessions but if people aren't committed to put into practice what they've agreed when they go back into the busyness of the day-to-day work then it will have been a waste of time so we we would we would put a lot of emphasis on their commitments that senior leaders make to one another or team members make to one another follow me an intervention from us to ensure that they follow through on the commitments that we've bothered me incredible and you see it as important it makes a big change in businesses that you've worked in yeah it's incredible you know so some you know some companies that we've worked with for example you know we when perhaps I've worked with a particular team and and a part of a big financial institution and they've been able to say that as a result of that kind of you know that kind of team coaching over a period of of three years it's one of the factors that has led to considerable growth you know and you know and an increase in profit no it's not the only factor but they would they have identified it as one of the significant factors in other cases we have worked with organizations going through a massive change a lot of change and ambiguity and uncertainty and certainly what's been interesting with some of those companies that work with in spite of the chance and ambiguity that actually their business as usual has been doing very well their commercials are excellent in spite of all the challenges that are going on so I think the fact that they've invested and that kind of the people element has worked for them and financially amazing and they're saying as a company owners or leader should be watching out for that they need by that might be signals that they need to change it Denis Belliveau how the teams are and performing and integrating yeah so um so one of the things that toured has developed is a crisis incubation – which is that it's called canary you know like can a canary in a coal mine yeah you know where the old canary in the coal mine was to see if there was gap if there was poison and in the air it's a bit like that and it's a it's about organization resilience and so there are a series of measures and in the canary psychometric which which are kind of things to the guy for so for example one of and it's it's based on you know research that we did and to you know crises and disasters and you know in some cases lateral disasters like an oil spillage or or or plane crashes things like that and we looked for what were the factors in terms of leadership that in all the reports and all the inquiries of disasters and crises in different sectors what were the behaviors of leaders that contributed to the crisis and we find quite similar things one example would be for example one of the factors we look at is called flexible flexibility with hierarchy and so organizations are leaders here not flexible around hierarchy in other words they dare not be questioned because they're the boss that can that can incubate crisis the most extreme example of that is the you know the the copilot who dares not question the pilot as they're about to crash you know that's that's the most extreme example of that but there are other examples of that where perhaps there is a kind of a very was autocratic charismatic see you in an organization and people know things are not right but they they weren't prepared to call they might they weren't prepared to kind of go go beyond the hierarchy and and then so that's one of the factors in the canary psychrometric that we look at as a sort of an indicator that there may be a crisis brewing and of course prevention as you were saying prevention is better than cure so a lot of that is about your building resilience so that they never get to the crisis point nasal so sounds very interesting definitely need to check out and fight a war on this so skipping then our segue in and he you're ready so you've decided to rape receive a passion for writing so we do a lot of writing in here for I guess for content marketing so sure passion but we're definitely not claimed to be an author now but could you tell us a little bit about your you know your books and your stories and is it is it based in Northern Ireland the conflict zone or a little bit about yes so and so about ten years ago I went to a creative writing class just for fun that was after I'd done my MBA I did it with the Open University and I really enjoyed that as a way of learning you know the distance learning but after about a year I missed it a little bit and I couldn't think of any particular course that I needed to do professionally that stage and I thought well I don't I just have a look at the open university perspective prospectus and and just do something for fun and I noticed some creative writing courses at the same time my mother was moving Christ and she found my old school reports and they're all these nice comments and my school reports my English teachers about my writing so I thought I haven't written creatively for years now maybe a bit like you I had written many business reports I've done a lot of business writing and I even enjoy that you know as well but I haven't written creatively for many years and I thought well I'll go and do a creative writing course just for the fun of it and you know see what happens and and really one of the one of the assignments that I had to do on the course form the part of the chapter in my first book paperboy and and then to my great surprise it was published and and then and then so the paperboy is about being a 12 year old paperboy delivering the Belfast raph in west Belfast in 1970s basically and not far from here actually and and so the second book is called Brad boy and and Brad boy I've been my customer service delivery skills were so renowned that I was headhunted by the local bread delivery man and I got a new Saturday job working as a teenager and delivering bread and when West Belfast and a 19 again 1970s the third grip is called our third book is called all growed up and they'd this want to move into a go to university for the first time half all my ideas about the world challenged meet people from different places fall in love all of that happens and all growed up and then the fourth memoir is called little house on the piece line and it tells the story of hi I I left University got married and went to live on the piece line in north Belfast right beside one of the piece walls in the 1980s and my wife and I worked across the pace line and we lived right on the peace sign and right at the height of the troubles in north Belfast in the nineteen eighties and our little house on the pace light so that's that's so it's really a series of memoirs they're not misery ma'am well done you might be surprised but they're not misery memoirs even though they're sad at a difficult time there's a lot of humor a lot of Belfast humour and them I had a very happy childhood you know in spite of all those going on around me so when so that's kind of the tone of them and you know they you know what I love about the the musical version of paperboy is they've really captured that new they've captured the music and the style and the sense of just growing up and being a kid in spite of all the travel things that were happening in the background incredible and so for anyone that's interested or lived in Belfast or nor down or interest neighbors history I guess then of the loads of stories and anecdotes differently note oh yeah and it's interesting it's what I found interesting in other companies is people are interested in the social history so there may be seeing the TV reports and never sense of what the troubles was a bite and better a better sense of Irish history from school or something but the social history they're interested and hided ordinary people give get get on and he's and my story is just about being an ordinary kid I wasn't the politician or a paramilitary or policeman right like that I was just a kid I was a paperboy I was a snore Denari care and paper and still not that social history um so next week I'm actually going to Norway where they're studying paper boy and English classes insanity schools there so it's you know so what I find amazing is that there's teenagers in Norway here interested in social history of Northern Ireland during the Troubles and they're actually reading Mike Perkins gets quite amazing those incredible but it's also great that it's actually captured because you know these stories the history and you know fifty years a hundred years we want people to remember and see and understand what it was they yeah and that's important to me because as I say my mind is the story I think of probably most people in Northern Ireland they know Peter and you're not famous or you know weren't part of the peace process and all of that just the ordinary people or just ordinary families trying to get on with their lives as best they could in spite of you know it being a difficult period of time so I like the idea that you know the kind of story of ordinary people's out there alongside the kind of official histories that get written as well you know actually yeah and as you say sometimes that official histories can be a little bit too heavy to read yeah and actually something like this a lot of enjoyment and life was like for real because I remember growing up and I I've two or three memories that you know what I'll tell my kids and grandkids all about but looking looking forth so so the process of writing and did you find it hard see obviously written before but I see then going to a book and getting it published it was the process hard is it wasn't money we we all here is her money knock backs the loser it was a success overnight I was very I was very fortunate so um so I I sent paper boy to to publishers expecting them both to say no one of them said no I'm one of them said yes and I was all ready for you know 50 rejections so I was picked up by the girl I was quite taken aback and I honest said that's it I didn't know was it good enough I I didn't I didn't feel that confident there's a writer at that stage and I wasn't sure and I'm you know if I'd got fifty rejections I probably would have thought well maybe it's not good enough so I was really surprised and excited when what won this publisher compacted me almost right away and said we like this we've send it to thee they'd sent it to you let Richard critic of one of the Irish newspapers and he'd like to tell you and and and they asked me what you know was it finished yet was there any more I haven't finished reading and at that stage yeah so so I I was very I was very fortunate and not in that sense the other part that I didn't expect about being a writer was all goes with it so um you know like festivals and but greetings and events and you know you know and I know a lot of writers don't enjoy that because they're quite solitary introverted people but actually I actually enjoy all that so I like doing all those sort of things I've been to I think I've been to every Irish Festival and the United States the best is you know doing big readings and signings and things like that and I'm because my books there's a humor in my books what I find is I really enjoy kind of almost perform in it and having an audience that's enjoying and laughing because usually with my other work when I'm standing in front a group of people it's quite serious at times so so it's lovely to do something which is just you know great fun out there telling as well and your process of writing then again if there's not even watching and thinking okay even and maybe not right now but for generate some content for their business or website do you have a process to work serve what's what's your secret um I think just yet you know there's so many things to distract you from writing something that might mean switching off the Wi-Fi on your computer it might mean go into a different location I can't write in my office I have to I'm I go actually the coffee shops and public places I actually write on airplanes at 30,000 feet and you know um so that you know to me the place is important and if I associate it with a different type of writing I find it really difficult so so I think the place is important the time is important just to take the time even if it's only half an hour a day it makes a difference I've had different rhythms I used to write one day a week but then I got so busy that I couldn't do that anymore and that the men and I'm writing on retreats so I've actually booked retreats away for whole weeks this year where I can't do anything else because I've already booked the flights you know and I just go away and I write and I've been to writing retreats so I've done that I've done that as well I find I've never had writer's block but I do find the early part of a process of writing when you're just thinking and structuring it I find that can be hard hard work and and I think that's I think if anyone you know experiences that with writing I would just say go with it that's that's part of it you just didn't that students just doing the work and and I I would sometimes write for a while and then just go for a walk and let all sink in and then when I can't when I return to it maybe later or the next day or the next week it's I know this what's good about it and I noticed what needs changed about it yeah but I think part of that struggle and part of that distraction is actually part of the process of your working out what you're gonna say so I do I would do short scripts of thought for the day for the BBC so they're two and a half minutes crypts they have to be quite topical and current most in one this morning actually and sometimes it's two days before thought for the day and I haven't had a thought and I may need some stimulation and and it it's almost as if the the process leading up to that where I've been thinking about it for a day I'm trying to work out what is it I'm going to talk about what I'm gonna ride the bite that's almost more difficult I'm gonna actually start doing the writing so I think I think the struggle in writing is is the work and rather than you know not enjoy that I just think we'll just that's just part of it yeah does that make sense perfect sense yes yes and as you say that the key part ends and just get get to it yeah just just do it sometimes you know I I meet people and they say to me I'd love to write but a lot of time or I'm not sure what to write and I think I say then we just go home tonight just right the first thing comes into your head for an hour just right don't worry about the grammar or the spell and don't worry about any other it's ever gonna be published just to see what comes out I think it's really important for every writer to find their own voice you know not to try to be somebody else well that's one of the things that I learned during the creative writing courses you know rather than trying to copy someone and sound a bit pretentious I realized actually to be a good writer is finding your own voice and no one else has your voice we all have a distinct voice a unique voice because we're all unique with all our own experiences so I encourage people when they're writing to find their own voice and not try to copy anyone else's certainly don't try to copy my voice mmm that makes it something interesting oh that's to me that's the core powerful writing someone's unique powerful voice so what's what's next what does that the future hold them for yourself or something on the plans well it's interesting I'm sort of transitioning from nonfiction memoir and defection I'm just completing my first novel at the minute and and I'm also collaborating as I said on another another novel than screenplay you know based on a story in Rwanda that I was that I was talking about so also this year the musical returns and I'll be around for the rehearsals and all of that that's kind of an advisor in the background it's the most remarkable thing to see your life on the stage you know there's a bit in me as an experience and then have a busy year coming up just with travel where you know some of the companies were working with are are global and so I'm gonna be traveling really all over the world in the next few months whether one piece of work we're involved in with toured as a culture program with a big acquisition with a huge company so I'm gonna be rolling out leadership development culture program North America Latin America exactly exactly that squeeze it in 35,000 feet if another merge of the two disciplines so funny–i wants to reach out connect and find out more about yourself or even find the books where's the best places that people should go and search well so my website's Tony McCauley co uk that can guide you either to McCauley associates topcoat UK which is about my work my leadership work my coaching of that work or it can guide you to Tony McCauley author calm which is my website which is more about my writing on my books I'm also an old social media you know I'm an Instagram Twitter Facebook all of those as well accent I would have all the links on the latest video and in this article so I mean we can check and click so again oh thank thank you very much for coming in today and tell us a little bit about what you're doing incredible so I've got a little bit of eating now for the weekend I think a couple the weekends ahead so thank you very much for coming in and sharing your your timers today you're welcome Karen it's good to meet you good excellent and thank you for watching the video too hopefully enjoyed it and did check out the links below and start reading and learn a little bit about what bad Foss was like in the 70s and 80s and will be me is that the stories we have here so this is Kieran from profile tree the content agency in Belfast were based in Springfield Road an innovation Factory and hopefully you watch our next video tomorrow so thank you again you

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