UW-Madison students support freedom for Muslim singers. What about Christian photographers?


So we’ve been hearing a lot lately about
the freedom to live and work according to your beliefs. From the fashion
designer in New York City to the small town florist in Washington, everyone
seems to have an opinion. So we visited the University of Wisconsin in Madison
to hear what people have to say. So there was a dress designer that turned down Melania
Trump to designer dress, she opted out. Do you think that she has the right to do
that? Yeah. Yeah, why not. Do you think it’s okay
for her to do that? Yeah. You should be able to control your business in that
regard. Yeah. I mean that’s like I guess it’s the company’s choice, right? I mean,
it’s a free market. That’s what most conservatives want anyway. So do you think
that she has the right to do that? The dress designer? Absolutely. So you have
the right to opt out of business that you might not want to associate yourself
with? Yes. So if you were, let’s say, a Muslim singer here in Madison and a
church approached you for Easter service for you to sing, do you have the right to
opt out of that? Yes. Yeah. I mean you have to give the right to opt out of doing
whatever you want. I think yeah. Yeah. I think I guess so.
That seems like such an unusual circumstance that they would want them,
like that the Christian Church would want to force a Muslim singer to sing at
their church if they didn’t want to. I would feel like if I was Muslim, I would,
it would be hard to work with someone. Yeah, if that goes against your religious
views, I feel like you have the right to turn that down. There’s actually a city ordinance that
would allow those groups to sue you by opting out, by turning down their
requests. Do you think that’s a good law? Probably not. So, the laws thing what now?
That the Muslim singer can opt out? They can’t opt out.
Oh yeah. Well that’s what the law says? Yeah. Do you think that’s an okay law?
I don’t believe so. No. No, not at all. I feel like that goes against people’s rights. So
pretty much, do you think that a law should exist that would force somebody
to do the work? Absolutely not. Absolutely not.
So let’s say you’re a Christian photographer, here in Madison,
and someone approached you to do a same-sex wedding. Would that be
hateful or discriminatory to opt out of that? I don’t know. Do you have the right
to do that? In that situation, probably not because that would bring up some
legal issues I would suspect. Like that city ordinance, right? Yes. Yeah. The one that you
didn’t agree with? Yeah. Yeah. If it was switch to like Christian views or
something they wouldn’t be able to do that and also, I don’t know, I just think
it should be like fair all around. I think it’s very difficult to determine
what reason it is that you make that decision unless you’re very steadfast in
your religion saying no this was wrong. In which case, yes you’re a jerk for
doing that. So your political views, your ideas, and kind of world view is okay to
say no to business but your religious views aren’t? No? That’s such a sticky
issue. Everyone agreed that a creative professional should have the
foundational freedom to decline work that conflicts with their conscience and
beliefs. But, when faced with a situation that conflicts with current cultural
expectations, like a Christian photographer declining to promote a
same-sex wedding, the gears start grinding. If a law that forces someone to
promote something that’s against their beliefs is so laughable, so
unimaginable, then why is it so difficult to extend that same freedom to a
Christian creative professional?

100 thoughts on “UW-Madison students support freedom for Muslim singers. What about Christian photographers?

  • Objective outcome based education on display. I thought at least one of them would catch on to the rather simple logical train he had…Nope.
    Education has pushed propaganda on kids for so long, it has taken a back seat to learning logic and critical thinking, hell you can clearly see it actually inhibits it here.
    These just show Pavlovian responses to the questions that have already been "preprogrammed" into them.
    They're actually unable to catch their own cognitive dissonance and biases, on a place that promotes itself on doing just that.
    Tell me again there isn't an education bubble.

  • "in that situation [Should a Christian photographer be allowed to turn down a same sex wedding] , probably not because then you get into legal issues".

    So within the few minutes that each of these idiots were standing there talking, they said yes you shouldn't be forced to make a dress for Melania Trump if it goes against your beliefs of who she is, yes you shouldn't be forced to sing as a muslim at a Christian church, yes the law should be repealed if it says those people should be forced to produce.

    ….then suddenly when asked should Christians have the same rights, they said no. Some of them were so stupid they knew they had nothing to say at all and just stayed quiet.

    And then they step back and hold their love trumps hate sign. Fuck these worthless biological mistakes. They are the true bigoted intolerant phobics projecting their own hate on the people they oppose.

    Good job shutting them down!

  • "I think it should be … like … fair, all round"

    Not the dumbest comment in the world, but an honourable mention. Someone whose parents should have told her when she was young that life isn't fair. Often times there is no "fair" choice except freedom to do as you damned well please where it is nobody else's business.

    I do wonder what they would have said if asked about a Muslim photographer. A conservative reporter went round some Muslim bakers asking for a gay wedding cake, to be refused every time. That got no traction in the news media or from the SJW usual suspects on new media.

  • We're absolutely screwed as a civilization. O.O Their stupidity and hypocrisy makes me so sick that they're just absolutely in love with Islam, and despise Christianity. How did these people manage to get into to a college? This is some serious crazy.

  • I hope these people keep thinking after they walk away. You can tell the gears are starting to grind in their head. Hopefully they can acknowledge the double standard and become better people.

  • When I see how these young college student think , I worry about the future of our great country.They look empty headed , no logic , no insight, just parroting what their liberal professors told them. A herd of fools.

  • Everyone knows that only Christians don't have the right to refuse when it comes to conducting business that conflicts with their religious beliefs. Everybody else's beliefs have to be respected. What's so difficult about that?

  • It should be the free market that decides. If the fundie photographer is too off base about not wanting to do a gay wedding, then people can decide not to do business w/ that company. People vote w/ their dollar. I mean I certainly wouldn't want to force a gay couple that photographs weddings to have to do a fundie wedding. There's plenty of business out there, and places to do business, for everybody. Finally, the best way out of these situations is to not draw attention to your beliefs/conscious. Stating "we're booked" or "we've got all the business we need" would diffuse the situation and allow everyone to go on w/ their lives.

  • Bravo!! As a Gay Man myself I wouldn't want to force anyone to go against their conscience. What these Leftists don't seem to realize is if they can force a Christian to do something against their conscience then who's to say the government couldn't force a gay store owner to print t-shirts for Westboro Baptist Church. Madison is one messed up city and it's one reason I moved away from that city

  • UW Madison is a very expensive school so it is natural you would encounter very wealthy narcissistic children who look down upon the lower classes when they disagree but the very second they can tweet about how progressive they are and use us as means to their ends we see through your bs you are not one of us you are the ones that have taken nearly everything from us we do not want or need your fake sympathy or support as they do not exist the only time we come up is when you are with other like minded rich elitists sipping champagne eating a $100 a course meal while espousing the hungry and homeless so bask in your fake charity and be walking contradictions of what you say I am not into religion but this is bs if you can do it to a Christian than you damn well better be able to do it to a Muslim fair is fair and you do not get to pick and choose because you have mommy and daddy's six figure income behind you

  • The students kind of have the right idea in terms of dominant versus minority dynamics, but they fail to explain it. I think the answer to me is secularize most services rendered. Obviously government services should be secularized regardless. They picked photography and singing as their choices. Switch this to say banks. What if a Christian bank denied Muslims banking services due to their religion and vice versa? Wouldn't we say both are wrong then?

    Complete freedom of choice is the road to tyranny of the majority. Muslims are 1 percent of the population. Christians are 75 percent. If we go to the extreme and say both groups refused each other services, who is going to suffer more living in America? Christian will feel almost nothing where as Muslims are going to suffer, plain and simple. Remember that this same kind of logic of free choice was used by whites to deny African-Americans equal services because they chose not to treat them equally. Isn't that within their rights as a business owner? Or is it different now that all of a sudden it's race and not religion (even though race and religion are often correlated).

    It's why affirmative action exists, because the colorblind policies and laws disadvantage minorities. You can say the LAW is colorblind, but PEOPLE aren't colorblind. Far from it, most people are racist, and many without knowing it. It's why, even WITH affirmative action, I'd rather be a white man with a criminal record than a black man without one. Because the white man with a criminal record has a better chance at employment than the black man. But you know, get rid of that too and go full-on colorblind and freedom of choice! Business owner can do what he wants! It's basically this same argument, but based around religion.

  • It's painful to watch these students caught in the hypocrisy of the liberal ideology they have been taught by their leftist professors and media heroes.

  • It makes me sad that these university students are unable to differentiate between the democratic right to protest an ideology you don't agree with (such as refusing to design a dress for the spouse of a politician whose policies you don't like) versus the unconstitutional discrimination of refusing services to someone based upon their biological traits such as skin color, gender, or sexual orientation.

    Very big difference.

    Being gay isn't an ideology to protest against, its a factor of one's genetic make up. Refusing a group of people services in the name of religion doesn't make that action constitutional, it's still discrimination.

  • it's a shame that someone wouldn't do their job and give their service to their costumers but I still think they have a right to sell to who they want to. the photographer shouldn't be forced to take pictures of anything, instead it should be their desision to accept opportunitys to do their job. the gay copple doesn't need a judgmental photographer anyways they can just find a different photographer that accepts them. in any sercoumstance I really feel that this law goes against people's rights to the first amendment

  • Good question for people brainwashed. Give them Muslims. Do not give them Christians. Why? Christian respects human being. A Muslim kills.

  • This guy is an idiot and obviously doesn't understand how public accommodation laws are applied. The church is not a public accommodation and thus isn't subject to those anti-discrimination laws. And being first lady is not a protected class. Religion, race, gender, these things are protected due to a long history of systemic discrimination for no good reason. A photographer with runs a business serving the public can't just refuse to provide services for someone in a protected class.

  • because they're children of satan held captive by him to do his will? "whose minds the god of this world has blinded" i know that is going to sound harsher to them than the krayon saying muslims have to behead infidels but those are two sound biblical facts (children of satan) (whose minds he's blinded). as much as beheading is basic koranic doctrine as well. And they feel much much more comfortable with the beheadings. they are SOOO ultra deceived these days (and getting worse). If it weren't for the Divine Trump reprieve we'd most certainly be living in the last days of pompeii (so to speak)

  • that is bull I am Gay and I totally support the freedom of speech, and religions, If you are in America and you want to turn away my business I would totally support your right to do as you wish. Who the Hell said we wanted to take away are freedom of speech ,religion, ect! All this bull shit my Gay communities is pushing on the rest of America is really pissing me off!! our soldiers died for these freedoms and as far as I am concerned that Christian preacher has every right to speak and enlighten are country with His faith. a lot of Gay people's are not happy in there life style and maybe faith might be the medicine for there happiness. Just leave people Free to find there pond,and definitely don't take or tamper with peoples faith,and or there freedom of speech!

  • Why? Because most people have no principles. They merely hide behind moral standards when it suits them, like a trojan horse invading those who do accept and embrace moral standards. Like free speech. The left challenged the traditionalists(mostly conservative) to permit them to have a say in public discourse in the 1960s. They claims they were pro free speech. Fast forward 30 years, when they had control over media, campuses, and hollywood; did they still support free speech? Nope.

  • I'm a devout Muslims and very active in our local mosque. This video was interesting and amusing. I Once a principle or foundation is set in a person's mind or viewpoint then you have to carry it out no matter what. That is what principles are for. A person should have the right to decide where or how they would share creative or professional services. A Muslim shop owner could easily find themselves in the same situation.

    The 'need' and pressure to conform to societal and cultural trends is pushed on the ill-informed and improperly educated is alive and well. It exists under every banner or group someone would be labeled as or identifies with. I would have liked to know about the law in detail. The broad definition of the law as stated by the person in the video was not very substantive, and maybe the actual law isn't either. I guess I'll google it.

    I must say however as I understand it, volunteering your services at a non-profit or not.. and the issue of trade and commerce are different by the law. Inhibiting interstate commerce is how the federal government finally was able to abolish segregation in the south because the eateries along the interstate highways in the south were segregated. It's different from any volunteering efforts or invites that would be segregated by an individual private citizen.

  • Not being involved in these discussion in the classroom but rather on the lawn, only occasionally, outside the class shows how bad the system has degraded and how intellectually barren our higher education system has become.

  • To all the people saying it's a false equivalency because the photographer is "discriminating against gay people" that's not the issue. "Imagine if you're a photographer and someone approached you to do a same-sex wedding?" It's not a matter of discriminating against a group of people. It's about refusing to provide service for an event that goes against your beliefs. Let's say it's a Christian bakery. A gay person approaches them and asks for a Birthday cake. There would be no problem.

  • (John 15; 18-19) 18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

    Nothing new or surprising here. This is expected, its been prophesied about. You're either in the world and fear the world or you're in God and fear God. You can't serve two master, you either love God and hate the world or you love the World and despise God.

  • A Muslim photographer would have more reason to refuse to phoytograph a same sex marriage. Homosexuality carries a DEATH PENALTY in more than a dozen Muslim countries. They're the ONLY countries that have such draconian laws. SJWs ignore "inconvenient truths" about "the Religion of Peace".

  • "That seems like such an unusual circumstance, that a Christian church would want a Muslim singer to sing… if they didn't want to."

    Yes.

    Yes that is unusual, you're right.

    This young woman actually does understand the plight of the Christian baker/photographer/wedding planner, and yet she pretends not to.

  • You have an amazing number of views considering you have no tags whatsoever to help search engines pick up this video. If you watch a few youtube videos on SEO for youtube you will find your video on the top of google and youtube searches. I was able to do that and I have a tiny channel compared to you. Keep up the great work and if you do a little research on SEO you will be amazed at the reach you will have for this awesome content! (Also VIDIQ is a great free tool that is invaluable for helping you increase your stats.)

  • why wouldn't the christians go to the poofters wedding? they should be trying to get them saved! if they're not already to be sure.

  • Here's where the difference lies. If you believe homosexuality is a choice, then this video makes sense. Homosexuality, however, is not a choice. If a person wants to hire a photographer to take pornographic photos, they have a right to refuse that service. If a photographer is asked by a gay couple to take photos that they'd otherwise take for anyone else, and they refuse the service based on the couple's sexuality, that's discrimination.

    If a baker wants to refuse to make a cake for a Muslim religious ceremony with Muslim symbolism on it, because he's Christian, that's his right because he's refusing to make something he disagrees with. If a muslim person asks for a cake he'd otherwise make for anyone else, and he refuses because the person is a Muslim, that's discrimination.

    In this context, the video is using a bit of straw man fallacy to make its case. A muslim singer should be able to refuse to provide a service at a Christian church because they'd be asked to actively participate in, and create art for, an ideology (which is a choice) they disagree with. But denying services to a gay couple because they're gay is discrimination.

    A "happy medium" may be for the baker to say "I will create you a cake, but I'm not going to put a topper on it of two men or two women." The couple could put the topper on themselves. The service would be provided, and the baker could create a cake that he'd otherwise create for anyone else, without being forced to create something he disagrees with.

    He has the right to refuse to create something that he objects to, so long as he's consistent with that stance and cites the object he's being asked to create as the objection, not the individuals asking. If he does the latter, then he could also refuse service to an interracial couple, or an asian couple, or a Pakistani couple, or whomever he likes — all of which is clearly discrimination.

  • Yes… well done… except for one thing. One of the questions he asked would most likely NEVER happen. Westerners are so oblivious to muslim culture & LAWS… they don't KNOW that according to islam… muslims CANNOT sing, OR listen to music. If they get caught doing one of those things… they CAN be put to death ON THE SPOT! They are ALSO not allowed to listen to a trumpet or horn being blown.

    If you are EVER in fear for your life from a muslim attack & have the time to assess it & do something about it… pull out your trumpet & start blowing it… 😀 … or start singing. And if you're a woman pull out your gun & go toward him immediately. According to Mohammed & the Hadeieth… if a jihadi is killed by a woman… he will NOT go to paradise. He will go straight to hell so he will run like crazy from you! If you think i'm making this up… do the research yourself.

  • Bravo! I think that any creative professional, regardless of thier beliefs, should be able to opt out of participating in an event that they do not agree with.

  • Bill Whittle says the best thing about being a conservative is that he gets to say one thing and do the same thing, as opposed to these Progressives who need to say one thing but do another. The mental gymnastics required to hold Progressive beliefs is astounding, and should be a red flag that they are internally inconsistent, unworkable, or both.

  • So, I can assume that all you "Christians" believe in humans rights? And I can also assume that you would never force your own beliefs onto another human being, right? So, I can therefore assume that you would NEVER take your CHILDREN to church and FORCE/BRAINWASH them into following YOUR beliefs because it makes you feel better? I mean, that would be CRAZY wouldn't it!

  • White tra$$h are so dumb: deplorabiles/amalgamated vikings versus faux pseudo-intelectuais, nearly ''70%'' of so-called aryan race look like that.

  • If you aren't forced to think in college you have wasted your time. It looks like the interviewer has made these conditioned minds think for the first time. It probably hurt.

  • Dang, that was awesome. They all basically realized the inherent contradiction and came to the conclusion that they might be wrong about it. And then theres that one girl that was like, hmm maybe just the Christians cant deny people. lol

  • There is an intellectual dishonesty to neo liberals and they know it. Deep down at the roots it is all about fighting Christianity and also about the abolition of traditional marriage and family. Because leftist brainwashing falls apart when families still exist. But the truth will always come out. Thanks for what you do.

  • '' But,but,but, that's different…. Hey!! That's not fair! You tricked me with logic and reason and now my head is going to explode. '' ..And their parents pay how much for their education?….Tisk, tisk, tisk.

  • BS The Judiciary branch of the Government of the USA can create CASE LAW and in Loving v Virginia, and Lawrence v. Texas, the government of the United States of America has made it clear what a lower court can and can not do.

  • How insane is this?!?! It’s only a tough decision when it comes to Christians? Who exactly are the bigots? FREEDOM IS FREEDOM FOR ALL NOT JUST SOME!

  • Persecution of christians is worldwide. Anti-christian laws are rapidly appearing in the US. It is becoming more difficult to legally defend christian values against the religion of the neo-Marxist Left under the guise of social justice. It already controls higher learning and mainstream media. It is engaged in the suppression of free thought and free speech through political, psychological and physical intimidation.

  • How far down this rabbit hole do we want to go? Should a black-owned restaurant be allowed to refuse to serve a group of Klansmen? And should a white-supremacist-owned restaurant be allowed to refuse service to a black family?

    FWIW, I believe freedom of association trumps all. I know there'd be newsworthy instances of outrage, but I believe that there's enough good people in this world that everybody will be able to find someone to make their cakes, take their photographs, and serve them at a restaurant.

  • Today's word for liberals: H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y:

    hy·poc·ri·sy
    həˈpäkrəsē/
    noun
    noun: hypocrisy; plural noun: hypocrisies

    the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.
    synonyms: dissimulation, false virtue, cant, posturing, affectation, speciousness, empty talk, insincerity, falseness, deceit, dishonesty, mendacity, pretense, duplicity;

  • The premise of the video is misguided in that there is a fundamental difference between the examples given and the real event being eluded to, namely the refusal of a cake shop to make a cake for a same-sex wedding. Clearly forcing a photographer to come to your wedding and take pictures, even if you pay them, is like slavery because they have no choice, but when someone opens up a physical business they cannot exclude people.

  • These religious types are just upset that they have to abide to law and serve gay couples. Gays are people who a gay by nature, religion is something you choose to believe in, and sorry to remind you peasants religion is fiction, unlike homosexuality which is proven factually to occur on a subconscious level in humans. 
    STOP PRETENDING LIKE RELIGION SHOULD GRANT YOU EXTRA RIGHTS.YOU ARE BEING IRRATIONAL, YOUR FICTITIOUS BELIEFS DO NOT ENTITLE THE RIGHT TO DISCRIMINATE.
    PS, YOUR GOD DOES NOT EXIST.

  • The interviewer has used a tangle of logical fallacies on unsuspecting students to seemingly entrap them, but he's either being ignorant or disingenuous in his approach. In order for refusal of service to be considered unlawful discrimination, a couple of conditions must be met. First, the business has to be a public accommodation, like a store, restaurant, bank etc. Second, the basis for the refusal would have to fall within one of the specified categories as defined by the Civil Rights Act (e.g. race, religion, sex etc) or additional laws in that jurisdiction.

    A retail bakery would easily fall under the public accommodation language of anti-discrimination laws. And if sexual orientation is listed as a protected category in that state or jurisdiction, then denying service on this basis would likely be unlawful. On the other hand, declining to design a dress for the Presidential inauguration based on political beliefs probably does not meet this criteria since political beliefs are not a protected category in most jurisdictions, and the designer may not even be considered a public accommodation. A private performer like a singer may also not be considered a public accommodation, and obviously an individual cannot generally be forced to enter into an employment agreement just because an employer wants to hire them.

    Whether or not a service like photography falls within the public accommodation definition may depend on the jurisdiction and the nature of the business. For example, a storefront photography studio may be considered different than a private freelancer. Another wrinkle in the example he started with is that the client was the First Lady of the United States. The notion that government leaders can conscript a private citizen against their will into a contract that conflicts with their political beliefs is hardly comparable to a retail store refusing service based on sexual orientation.

    What this comes down to is the conflict between different constitutional rights, such as whether the religious freedom of the store owner or employee trumps the civil rights of the customer. Or as this video touches on, whether the work of creative professionals should be protected from compelled expression if they have moral objections about a client that pertain to a protected class, and what actually constitutes such expression (does floral arrangement fall under constitutionally protected free speech?). These are not simple questions with simple or universal answers, and the ramifications of favoring the business or service providers could literally be life and death, such as recent proposals involving whether medical and health care providers can refuse service based on their religious beliefs and the sexual orientation or lifestyle of the patients. In practice, most freelance creative professionals could probably decline to take a job by citing legally valid reasons, such as scheduling conflicts, without exposing themselves to a lawsuit. An EMT refusing to provide CPR based on religious freedom objections might have a different outcome.

    Conflicts between the rights of different citizens are a common occurrence and this is why we have regulations, laws and courts to help manage this. The notion that religious freedom is under attack because of civil rights claims may be a convenient rallying call, but the reality is not that simple.

  • All white people are racist than devil all man are sexlist than pig all white people are racist all male are sexist monster all women marriage all women all women marriage all women all women marriage all women all men marrgiage all men all men marrgiage all men no all straiger marriage no all straiger marriage

  • All Christian are anti atheist all Christian are anti atheist all white people are racist all white people are racist all men are sexlist all men are sexist swamp water increase back up again all white hater are hurtful non white all white hater non white marxist of Marxism marxist of Marxism

  • what scares me the most isn't their opinions it's the fact that you can tell that they've never once objectivity though about them.

  • you modified their responses to the last question by bringing up that new law. replicate this without talking about the law.

  • It's against my religion to tolerate Christians. As someone who works in immigration, I always deny Christians entry to the country. You're a hypocrite if you think this is wrong, given that you believe that a Christian should be able to do this to gay people and Muslims. Sorry not sorry.

  • I mean choosing not to participate in the LGBT wedding, or design a dress for the First Lady makes you a jerk. But being a jerk is not a crime to be sued over 🙁

  • This is the result of our education system h Establishment media propaganda feeding these thoughts into people…

  • These guys are asking crazy questions. First off, why would a church hire a Muslim to sing on Easter or Christmas? Prayers are meaningless unless they are actually believed. Thus the singer should believe in them. I'm a Christian and I wouldn't sing the adhan at a mosque because I don't believe in it. As for the photographer, I honestly couldn't care less, though I support LGBTQIA marriage and I always urge people to err on the side of grace.

  • THIS WAS A GOOD SEGMENT OTHER RELIGIONS CAN TURN DOWN SERVES HOWEVER CHRISTIANS CANNOT. I HATE LIBERALS THEY BELONG IN HELL

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